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Temat: Turning of the tide:

According to the bbc, half of the estimated million E.U. migrants who entered the U.K. since 2004, have now returned home:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7372025.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7372281.stm

Do posters here believe this to be true?

Any comments:
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Temat: Turning of the tide:

This may also be of interest:

Map showing distribution of new EU nationals across the UK:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7370955.stmwarren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 30.04.08 o godzinie 13:13
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Steve Jones

Steve Jones Business English
Trainer, Translator,
Proofreader

Temat: Turning of the tide:

It was all quite predicatable I think:

- How long is a university graduate going to be satisfied with washing the dishes?

- If millions of pounds of wages are being sold and converted into zloty this will inevitably weaken the pound and strengthen the zloty

- The 5 pound an hour dish washing money-spinner suddenly doesn't seem that attractive

- You could move out of the dish-washing business and into something more to your taste ... but .... you'd have to have really good English for that

- Good English perhaps wasn't the priority. It was more a question of pounds in the pocket and saving wherever you could, usually by sharing accomodation in run-down areas with other Poles

- You're living in a run-down area - it's not exactly going to inspire you to stay longer, is it?

- And in spite of the excellent range of food on offer in Britain with its multi-cultural vibe and wide choice of restaurants, it's unlikely that you'll ever experience that because you're too busy saving money

- So, the food's shit, the job's shit, the house is shit, and the money's now shit so why stay?
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Temat: Turning of the tide:

- So, the food's shit, the job's shit, the house is shit, and the money's now shit so why stay?

The great British sense of humour?

I'm not sure that it is Polish cash transfers that have weakened the pound, but just lack of international confidence in the UK economy at the moment.

However you can describe Poles you definitely can't accuse them of not understanding how to make (or save) more money. Now working in Poland is possible, and pays better, they are coming back.

I reckon that another thing that pushed people out in the first place was the feeling of gloom that the Kaczynskis and Lepper were running the country. It was the last straw.
Now they have gone, thinks seem a lot brighter.
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Alicja Efejska

Alicja Efejska Lektor, PEN

Temat: Turning of the tide:

Steve Jones:
It was all quite predicatable I think:

- How long is a university graduate going to be satisfied with washing the dishes?

- If millions of pounds of wages are being sold and converted into zloty this will inevitably weaken the pound and strengthen the zloty

- The 5 pound an hour dish washing money-spinner suddenly doesn't seem that attractive

- You could move out of the dish-washing business and into something more to your taste ... but .... you'd have to have really good English for that

- Good English perhaps wasn't the priority. It was more a question of pounds in the pocket and saving wherever you could, usually by sharing accomodation in run-down areas with other Poles

- You're living in a run-down area - it's not exactly going to inspire you to stay longer, is it?

- And in spite of the excellent range of food on offer in Britain with its multi-cultural vibe and wide choice of restaurants, it's unlikely that you'll ever experience that because you're too busy saving money

- So, the food's shit, the job's shit, the house is shit, and the money's now shit so why stay?

Great analysis, Steve.:) I think you just mentioned everything but social integration. We talked about earlier: they also find it difficult to fully integrate.
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Temat: Turning of the tide:

Alicja Efejska:
Great analysis, Steve.:) I think you just mentioned everything but social integration. We talked about earlier: they also find it difficult to fully integrate.

Why, in your opinion, would they find it difficult to fully integrate?

Would you personally find it difficult to do so?
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Alicja Efejska

Alicja Efejska Lektor, PEN

Temat: Turning of the tide:

warren whitmore:
Alicja Efejska:
Great analysis, Steve.:) I think you just mentioned everything but social integration. We talked about earlier: they also find it difficult to fully integrate.

Why, in your opinion, would they find it difficult to fully integrate?

Would you personally find it difficult to do so?

No,I don't. I'm referring to a discussion we had here some time ago.
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Temat: Turning of the tide:

You haven't answered my questions.

List some reasons why you don't believe they could integrate successfully.

And you haven't stated whether you personally could integrate into life in the U.K..
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Alicja Efejska

Alicja Efejska Lektor, PEN

Temat: Turning of the tide:

warren whitmore:
You haven't answered my questions.

List some reasons why you don't believe they could integrate successfully.

And you haven't stated whether you personally could integrate into life in the U.K..

b/I don't know if I would or wouldn't. I don't live there so how can I know this.
a/I don't remember this thread so well but I remember that those problems were discussed.
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Temat: Turning of the tide:

It takes a lot of effort to overcome the culture shock; I have been to many trainings on the subject, and have been told repeatedly that the only solution is to go out and have a taste of the new culture. For all the reasons Steve listed here, it's practically impossible for MOST of the Poles to do so; and counseling doesn't help either as the immigrants aren't WILLING to integrate.
This should be discussed over a glass of beer, I guess, to make sure we all understand each other fully :)
I just wanted to say I'd find it hard to adapt to the British way of life, but being a reasonable girl, I'd do my best to feel like home. I've been to the UK several times but never felt the urge to stay for longer. I found the US a wonderful place to live, same as France and Germany (apart from the dreadful language) where I'd stayed for a time before leaving for Texas; I guess if I had some British friends (and not immigrant washer-uppers) I'd be able to dig into the culture and, who knows, decide to stay.
As for the British sense of humor - well, that takes a while to get used to, and I've recently heard is "hard to put up with" :D I like it though, although sometimes miss the point...
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Temat: Turning of the tide:

Tatiana, do you understand my point of view on this kind of subject?

I can understand people who simply don't know English not integrating.

What I don't understand is someone, for example, who's spent 5 years at university studying English, coming to England, and then whining and moaning about English social habits, and the way English people happen to speak English.

I mean, no-one from our side actually asked them to do any of the above.

If the reality of England does not match the England of their imagination, this is hardly the fault of the natives.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 01.05.08 o godzinie 17:57
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Temat: Turning of the tide:

It seems to me that the only way to fully integrate in
a new community (hate this word, but...) is the language. Once you know the language perfectly and have some grey cells you can function anywhere if you only wish so. Exceptions happen, but these are special cases and maybe special people.
So, bloody hell, once you decide to live in the UK, spend every bloody minute of your life there learning the language - wherever and whenever possible!
Why don't we find it difficult when it comes to our integration into a new community in our own country? People move from remote places to major cities, go through a slight culture shock and then find it OK (or not).
Financial independence plays some role as well. But most immigrants to the UK don't seem to complain about this.
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Temat: Turning of the tide:

Language aside, I don’t think I understand why someone would have issues integrating. I understand cultural differences, but those usually play a major roll when it comes to exotic cultures such as far or middle east. Usually, related to theology. As long as there is a will, there will be a way. It’s not hard (once you have a grasp on the language, maybe I should make that clear, that in my opinion, not learning the language of a country that you are living in is simply laziness and one can only have themselves to blame for integrating difficulties due to lack of mutual understanding). In my opinion, what helps with social detachment is a pre learned (mostly untrue) ideas and expectations that immigrants bring with them. Once abroad, most realize that people are not so different from those left behind, that there is nothing special about them, unusual or otherwise. Unfortunately it is much easier to find acquaints with in their own cultural circles and get stuck in those, completely losing interest in discovering the new surrounding environment.
I found American High School kids to be rather obnoxious and arrogant, but eventually I realized that most likely majority of HS kids world wide are obnoxious and arrogant.
It’s very hard to stay objective when you are insecure and it is much easier to jump into conclusions while not understanding the language, accent or the tone of voice used. Staying objective and opened to the surrounding environment, however annoying it could be at times and giving it your best to try and understand it on a flatly objective plateau is in my opinion the key to integration. It’s all about a virtue called “patience”.Rafal Wolk edytował(a) ten post dnia 01.05.08 o godzinie 18:11
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Temat: Turning of the tide:

Raf, would an American have difficulty in integrating in the U.K., and a Brit in the States?

You claim everything to be a question of language.
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Temat: Turning of the tide:

No, not at all Warren, I don’t claim it to be all a question of the language. When I say understanding, I mean it in a way where we don’t question actions of our new neighbors but rather learn from them and try to understand them. There are reasons for all actions, traditions and cultural differences. As long as you are more interested in understanding roots of those actions and traditions instead of dismissing them completely in a manner of “not my tradition, don’t know it, don’t care for it, it’s useless to me” you should be fine. People tend to like when foreigners inquire about their culture with honest interest.
Integration is understanding not only the language but culture. Yes both of those go hand in hand, but if you are willing to study both of them simultaneously, integration will come naturally. I think it’s a very similar idea as the argument native speaker teacher vs. a University graduate with a degree in languages. Practice vs. Theory, where theory represents those pre learned cultural stereotypes and TV pop pseudo-culture.
Again, I am not a scholar, but I am speaking from a perspective of someone who has been assimilated, and realized that resistance in fact is futile.
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Temat: Turning of the tide:

sorry, didn't answer your question. I don't think that a Brit or a Yank would have issues adapting. Unless they are some seriously dense people who refuse to play by the rules in their new environment. Some issues may come up, but I really find it hard to believe that it would be much of an issue. I have never been to the UK (I’d love to and I am sure that we will make that trip once in Europe) but I did have some good friends who were Brits, and honestly, we had nothing but great times together. I think people laugh at the same things no matter where you are, people enjoy those little things about life that we get to steal in between work and responsibilities. Sense of humor may be a bit different, but it really doesn’t take a very long time to get accustomed to it.
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Sylwia Łubkowska

Sylwia Łubkowska Nauczyciel oraz
tłumacz j.
angielskiego

Temat: Turning of the tide:

Tatiana S.:
It takes a lot of effort to overcome the culture shock; I have been to many trainings on the subject, and have been told repeatedly that the only solution is to go out and have a taste of the new culture. For all the reasons Steve listed here, it's practically impossible for MOST of the Poles to do so; and counseling doesn't help either as the immigrants aren't WILLING to integrate.

I agree. I think the best way to integrate with the hosting country is to develop a certain degree of positive curiosity about their culture. And whether or not an immigrant would do that would depend on the main motivation of their relocation. It is hardly surprising that those who only go abroad for financial reasons aren't that interested about the culture and mentality of the foreign people. And this can be a good thing if they only plan to stay for a short time and then go back home (i.e. it can lessen the effects of the culture shock).

But the longer they stay, the more painful it becomes. Living in ghettoes like those in London or NY or Chicago seems easier, as one feels safe among people of the same kind and using the same language, but it's a form of self-inflicted segregation and a kind of denial. And much as the integration process can be painful (as one often needs to redefine certain values and attitudes that were obvious in their home country but aren't that obvious in the new one), I think refusing to integrate can cause just as much suffering. People become bitter, they try to hide their resentment of the fact that they're not at home and 'have to do as they're told', plus they often have to start things from scratch, which is hard in itself. The newcomers are irritated looking at the carefree native dwellers who have their lives sorted and all they seem to worry about is a new car or where to go for a holiday next. Even if an immigrant lands fairly good jobs and money isn't that much of a problem, it's always going to be a certain phase of discomfort. Not everyone is willing or patient enough to go through it. It's often easier to say life's unfair.
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Temat: Turning of the tide:

How about whether you have friends or not?
When I was young I always had the same friends, through to going to university. There was very little variation in the composition of my group of friends.
I don't feel comfortable being dropped amongst strangers and having to make new friends, and this made me find university difficult, and I was never particularly happy there.

As I've got older I've gradually lost contact with the old friends and have generally only formed acquaintances rather than very close friendships in the new places where I've lived. For this reason there've been periods when I've resented the place that I've been living in.

If you don't have close friends you don't really feel like you belong somewhere, and as you get older it is less easy to make close friendships.

Culture differences can be important, but I think that having good friends and family nearby is important too.Steven H. edytował(a) ten post dnia 01.05.08 o godzinie 21:20
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Sylwia Łubkowska

Sylwia Łubkowska Nauczyciel oraz
tłumacz j.
angielskiego

Temat: Turning of the tide:

Steven H.:
How about whether you have friends or not?
When I was young I always had the same friends, through to going to university. There was very little variation in the composition of my group of friends.
I don't feel comfortable being dropped amongst strangers and having to make new friends, and this made me find university difficult, and I was never particularly happy there.

As I've got older I've gradually lost contact with the old friends and have generally only formed acquaintances rather than very close friendships in the new places where I've lived. For this reason there've been periods when I've resented the place that I've been living in.


A nearby family is definitely important. My stay in the UK was a sort of escape from their overprotectiveness, but that was then and now that I'm back I'm really happy to have them around.

When it comes to friends, I was quite amazed at the special status that friends have among British folks. One of my (ex-boyfriends ;) said: 'boyfriends come and go, but your friends will stay'. It's very true. He's the only ex of mine who I'm still in touch with and we're good friends. He also was the person who introduced me to the life of the English, took me to gigs and bars and helped me every time I had to move places. I vented a lot of my frustrations on him, but ultimately, most things I know about the English, I know from him. And this definitely helped my integration.

If you don't have close friends you don't really feel like you belong somewhere, and as you get older it is less easy to make close friendships.

Culture differences can be important, but I think that having good friends and family nearby is important too.Steven H. edytował(a) ten post dnia 01.05.08 o godzinie 21:20

One important thing this bloke has taught me was that you should look after your friends, precisely for that reason.

Quite a few people kept saying that it was brave of me to come and live in the UK and they would never do a similar thing because of friends and family. But I kept ties with my friends in Poland (although it wasn't always easy) and made new Polish friends while in the UK. And it's always paid off ;)
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Temat: Turning of the tide:

North West running out of Polish workers:
http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/reg...

A few interesting fragments:

“There needs to be more focus put on the demand side, trying to create jobs that will ensure migrants, not just semi-skilled but high-skilled workers are attracted to the region.

Experts in Liverpool said the key to attracting new migrants was ensuring they felt able to integrate with the indigenous population.

Ewan Roberts, centre manager at Asylum Link, said: “The problem is the city is not prepared. Libraries and citizens’ advice offices don’t have the infrastructure to deal with people coming from overseas. We would be better to be pro-active.”

A report prepared by the Merseyside Social Inclusion Observatory, based on research conducted in the Kensington area of Liverpool, concluded that the vast majority of migrants – mainly Poles – had taken jobs which otherwise would have been left unfilled.

Dave McCall, from Migrant Workers North West, said: “We have ended up with lots of migrant workers coming to the country with advanced skills but who have ended up doing low-skilled jobs.

“Migrant workers are bringing a lot of economic benefits to the North West, but we aren’t matching up the skills they have with the shortages that exist. We need to make sure they know that the opportunities to progress are here.”

IMO, the truth is, most of immigrants came here only for short periods of time to earn some money and go back so they took first jobs they were offered because it didn't matter that much if it was only for a while - even the educated and skilled workers didn't mind working far below their real skills and abilities.

Also, they did not fell the desire to integrate - what for if they were supposed to leave soon? It seems that the time to return has just 'naturally' come - the educated ones are fed up with their cleaning jobs and the rest have earned enough to return home, buy a house or invest some money into their own companies. Weakening pound only added to this.

And what about the ones who decided to stay? The ones more educated? Many of them have been trapped in the scheme I described above - they took jobs thinking it would be for a while, soon got fed up with them, but at the same time they wouldn't look for better jobs because the situation they had found themselves in made them underestimate their potential. What's more it's hard to start looking for a better job with the history of a cleaner in your CV while English employers look for experience in the UK - they don't pay too much attention to what immigrants did in their native countries - so even if they have suitable qualifications they are not as suitable for the post as someone who has experience in the UK. Vicious circle.

At the same time, it's true that most regions are/were not prepared - they just welcomed the immigrants who took the low-skilled jobs, didn't care if they would integrate or not - they were happy someone took the jobs which would be, otherwise, left unfilled and that's it. They hoped, the immigrants would take care of themselves, learn the language, try to integrate just out of curiosity for British culture. Rubbish of course. Instead, Polish ghettos appeared, problems started - councils are shocked how it is possible that immigrants don't speak English after living in the UK for 4-5 years, but at the same time they have done very little to help them to integrate. Vicious circle again.Patrycja P. edytował(a) ten post dnia 02.05.08 o godzinie 12:23
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