Temat: Why does one become prone to extremist views?

Michał K.:
How does that make you feel Bernd?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
Feeling Holocausty ?

This is a propaganda that you took seriously.

Temat: Why does one become prone to extremist views?

So, tell me Michał, what to do in this dangerous (!) situation?

Sharia is on the loose, it will get Europe, and it will be the end of the civilization we know of... what shall be done?

Why the hell you posted the above video, and asked "Feeling Holocausty?"

I mean, what the fuck?

Temat: Why does one become prone to extremist views?

Dear Ilter.

The video was a provocation and a question below asked whether european people feel like starting a holocaust after watching it. This was an answer to the thread question. Why does one become prone to extremist views? If one is either pushed by religion into being and extremist or one who believes propaganda (hence my "cornered fox" sentence).

Below I wrote: "Because that's what I think will happen unless Islam becomes liberal and does what Christianity did by creating the New Testament (clearing the shit out e.g. stuff degrading to women etc.)"
This meant, that in my opinion, unless islam becomes liberal, european people will not allow for the islamisation of europe and become extremist themselves - starting another holocaust.

Luckily islam is getting liberal and thanks to lack of extremist mullah's and local government laws, not many honour murders, stoning's and child marriages happen.

I hope this answers your question.

Temat: Why does one become prone to extremist views?

Michał K.:
That's the full burkha, there's also a ninja burkha and a veil/head scarf called hijab. Any of these which are forced onto women is degrading. It doesn't matter how it's called or how accurate I was. Women are being beaten on police stations for revealing too much hair or showing an ankle. If you don't think that's fucked up, then I think you should speak about that with your wife/girlfriend, that's if you have one with such an approach.

What do you think about this then, Michal?

Turkish women refused hospital treatment for wearing headscarfs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf_controversy_in_...

In June 2002, Medine Bircan, a patient at the Istanbul University Hospital was refused treatment for wearing a headscarf on her ID card. She was a 71-year old seriously ill woman who had kidney failure and needed cancer treatment was denied any access for medical treatment by the hospital, which led to her losing her life.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 06.10.09 o godzinie 17:49

Temat: Why does one become prone to extremist views?

Michał K.:
So in your opinion what's happening in iran and saudi arabia is just propaganda, even though many women, human rights organisations and women rights organisations have reported to the western world of the problems that women have been having for hundreds of years.

What is bollocks is the video you posted at the start of the debate.

I doubt whether Ilter or anyone else here supports the denial of human rights to women in Iran and Saudi Arabia.

But what happens in these two countries does not happen in all Muslim countries, as those from Muslim backgrounds are not one homogeneous mass of people who all think and act the same.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 06.10.09 o godzinie 22:06

Temat: Why does one become prone to extremist views?

With a policy of official secularism, the Turkish government has traditionally banned women who wear headscarves from working in the public sector. The ban applies to teachers, lawyers, parliamentarians and others working on state premises. The ban on headscarves in the civil service and educational and political institutions was expanded to cover non-state institutions. Authorities began to enforce the headscarf ban among mothers accompanying their children to school events or public swimming pools, while female lawyers and journalists who refused to comply with the ban were expelled from public buildings such as courtrooms and universities.[4]

First of all, the public sector, as well as private sector has the right to impose a dress code. I agree that teachers shouldn't have religious signs on them, just as we wouldn't want a nun teach our kids math for fear of her passing on her belief to our kids.
Lawyers in some countries, as well as judges have a certain dress code. I don't know how it's in Turkey, but as any institution, the court has the right to expect a certain dress code.
If they were to allow a headscarf onto public places with sensitive or classified information, they would have to allow a full face cover as well (you have to draw the line somewhere). This would generate a huge security issue. In such places you cannot have such an ID



Mothers accompanying children to school (more like picking them up)is a valid point as anyone could wear a full burka and steal a child. This would happen in the UK a long time ago if it wasn't for muslims being untouchable. Public swimming pools is another one where I agree as well. Simply because of hygiene. I would not want to swim in a place where a person is swimming in layers of clothing that was used to filter through hectolitres of water and bacteria during the last swim and the sweat from the heat doesn't magically dissapear, but stays on these.. There are showers in swimming pools for a reason.

These are the technical reasons. Punishing people for not obeying these laws is another thing.
The underlying problem with immigration is that people take their set of rules and expect that they will be fine in a secular country.
They are wrong.
If I like techno, I don't go to a goth club wearing white gloves and face mask. If I'm an atheist, I don't go to a church and "preach" my point of view.
If you go to a person's house and they ask you to take of your shoes, you do that.

Since you edited, let me do so too.
As for the refusal of treatment - that was a completely idiotic behaviour.

I am with you, as stated previously, that not all muslims and act think the same. However, wherever you go, islam is always the same. While most religions in themselves are outdated and downright bad in many places, it is the people that use it against others to control, wage wars, submit and harm.Michał K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 06.10.09 o godzinie 18:17

Temat: Why does one become prone to extremist views?

Michał K.:
The video was a provocation [...]

You should have written the 'provocation' bit earlier.

[...] and a question below asked whether european people feel like starting a holocaust after watching it.

I think both the question, and the video, AND your following assumptions were all far stretched bollocks and none of the average European would even think about a holocaust when they see more Muslim-like people on the streets than usual.

Maybe you've meant "stopping the immigration"?

I really don't know. Either your wording is funky-awkward, or you are high, or you don't know what you are saying.

This was an answer to the thread question. Why does one become prone to extremist views? If one is either pushed by religion into being and extremist or one who believes propaganda (hence my "cornered fox" sentence).

The first post of yours and your following comments rather supported the view of: "If these people will be more crowded than my people, I may understand the reasons of being an extremist" hence, justification of extremist views and acts.

I don't think I'm having 2-3 different types of disorders.

What was there, in that video?

Below I wrote: "Because that's what I think will happen unless Islam becomes liberal and does what Christianity did by creating the New Testament (clearing the shit out e.g. stuff degrading to women etc.)"

It's not the Islam which can become liberal, but the REGIMES using it.

Are you currently living in Iran, what's the problem?
Don't relocate your family to Iran, right now, OK?

A religion can not become liberal. It's not what religion is or how it works. You can't bend the religion.

"Unless Islam becomes liberal" is an empty/meaningless sentence.
You are making a serious mistake putting it that way.

Besides that:
It's almost impossible to find any radical/extremist views in any religions, let alone Islam. Kuran doesn't say: "Go cut the throats of nonbelievers" for instance... no one with a working mind would follow such an idiotic sets of rules.

What YOU see, when you look at things, is different than the reality - this is what you need to understand.

There are "interpretations" of Islam in different countries, and this interpretation is not the same across the Muslim World.

When you see Ahmadinejad speaking, don't get scared. He just rules Iran, a bit longer than expected, and lately he is not able to do it gracefully. As you may have seen it on your TV.

This meant, that in my opinion, unless islam becomes liberal, european people will not allow for the islamisation of europe and become extremist themselves - starting another holocaust.

How would you know that?

Have you seen scientific sociological researches, or a serious public polls lately?

Or your knowledge about these things are from YouTube only?

I hope this answers your question.

I'm afraid it doesn't.
But if this is what you can do, it's ok with me.
In the end, Sociology, History, Comparative Religion, International Relations and Politics are not your majors, as I can see.

Temat: Why does one become prone to extremist views?

Michał K.:
... However, wherever you go, islam is always the same...

In order to be able to say that, you need to be an either academic/specialist about the region and the religion, or someone who lived in the region for longer than your average holiday.

So, please, don't write such things with factual sentence constructions (like "is" "always" etc.) They don't match neither with your experience, nor academic background.

Warren put it properly by writing:
"[...] those from Muslim backgrounds are not one homogeneous mass of people who all think and act the same."
This is what it is. This is what you should know, as the starter.ilter K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 06.10.09 o godzinie 18:40

Temat: Why does one become prone to extremist views?

ilter K.:

Michał K.:
The video was a provocation [...]

You should have written the 'provocation' bit earlier.

I did:
"Now let me explain. I have shown you a movie that exaggerates certain facts and is propaganda. A person believing such propaganda can become an extremist. I asked if what is portrayed in that video has made anyone feel "extreme". At no point I stated that I believe this is going to happen however I did state, that I oppose religion altogether and would not give up my rights, should the current liberal state be overthrown. This is where I would become "extreme"."

[...] and a question below asked whether european people feel like starting a holocaust after watching it.

I think both the question, and the video, AND your following assumptions were all far stretched bollocks and none of the average European would even think about a holocaust when they see more Muslim-like people on the streets than usual.

People shown such propaganda are prone to have extremist views. If the muslim influx were to be shown as a common enemy (like the jews were) people would "be prone to extremist views".

Maybe you've meant "stopping the immigration"?

no.

Either your wording is funky-awkward, or you are high, or you don't know what you are saying.

I know what I'm trying to say. Perhaps there is a language barrier between both of us (me not being able to properly convene what I have to say and you understanding it in a different way)

This was an answer to the thread question. Why does one become prone to extremist views? If one is either pushed by religion into being and extremist or one who believes propaganda (hence my "cornered fox" sentence).

The first post of yours and your following comments rather supported the view of: "If these people will be more crowded than my people, I may understand the reasons of being an extremist" hence, justification of extremist views and acts.

That's exactly what I was trying to say. If people feel their country is being taken over and a threat of a coup and islamic revolution is neigh, they might rebel.

I don't think I'm having 2-3 different types of disorders.

I'm sorry I fail to understand what you mean.

Below I wrote: "Because that's what I think will happen unless Islam becomes liberal and does what Christianity did by creating the New Testament (clearing the shit out e.g. stuff degrading to women etc.)"

It's not the Islam which can become liberal, but the REGIMES using it.

If a religion tells one to kill infidels who don't want to convert, it needs to change. If people use religion as an excuse to murder, they have to change.

Are you currently living in Iran, what's the problem?
Don't relocate your family to Iran, right now, OK?

No problem. I hope Iran won't come to me one day with muslims expecting sharia law being introduced in UK.

A religion can not become liberal. It's not what religion is or how it works. You can't bend the religion.

You can. Look what happened with christianity. It's constantly evolving to make itself fit in the current world and attract believers.

"Unless Islam becomes liberal" is an empty/meaningless sentence.
You are making a serious mistake putting it that way.

Is that a threat?

Besides that:
It's almost impossible to find any radical/extremist views in any religions, let alone Islam. Kuran doesn't say: "Go cut the throats of nonbelievers" for instance... no one with a working mind would follow such an idiotic sets of rules.

5:33 "The only reward for those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom..."
http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=13751

The above is clearly up for wide interpretation for religious murderers.

If you know koran, you know how many of these verses there are.

By the way, what is your view on Fitna ?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=216_1207467783

What YOU see, when you look at things, is different than the reality - this is what you need to understand.

There are "interpretations" of Islam in different countries, and this interpretation is not the same across the Muslim World.

So you are putting the people at fault, not the religion. I see.
So religion is a broad base for people to use as positive guidance in life (if they cherry-pick of course) or negative guidance, to enslave, murder and control.

But if you were to clean up the book and release a "new testament" the murder verses would be gone and the killers would not have a leg to stand on.

Have you seen scientific sociological researches, or a serious public polls lately?

No organisation will make such a poll for fear of attack by extremists. Gaert Wilders made a 15 minute video and he will have to hide for the rest of his life.

Or your knowledge about these things are from YouTube only?

Youtube is a video sharing site. Don't despise of it. it's a tool in one's hand. It depends how you use it.

I hope this answers your question.

I'm afraid it doesn't.
But if this is what you can do, it's ok with me.
In the end, Sociology, History, Comparative Religion, International Relations and Politics are not your majors, as I can see.

People that know the holy books the most are the atheists.

Go compare the three books and their genesis. Islam was created on the basis of christianity and judaism. Christianity was formed from paganism (sacrificing a sheep is still widely known).

It's all a fairy tale and people believe it for fear of being alone without a purpose. Weaklings need to feel there is some ultimate power to explain all the bad things happening to them as "will of god".Michał K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 06.10.09 o godzinie 19:03

Temat: Why does one become prone to extremist views?

ilter K.:

Michał K.:
... However, wherever you go, islam is always the same...

In order to be able to say that, you need to be an either academic/specialist about the region and the religion, or someone who lived in the region for longer than your average holiday.

I am entitled to an opinion.

Warren put it properly by writing:
"[...] those from Muslim backgrounds are not one homogeneous mass of people who all think and act the same."
This is what it is. This is what you should know, as the starter.ilter K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 06.10.09 o godzinie 18:40

And I already agreed with Warren on that.

Let me say it for the third time. I am against religion, not the people in general. If a person says their religion gives them the right to kill me as an infidel, that's when I will have a problem with a person. If a religion is being interpreted by a person which tells my wife to wear a scarf or cover her ankles, that is when I have a problem with a person.

Temat: Why does one become prone to extremist views?

My first exposure to images of extremism came to me several years after Buddhist monks were practicing what they called self-immolation in the streets in 1963. In Anglosphere we call it burning yourself to death. They were protesting the Vietnam war.

They really showed 'em didn't they? How stupid.

We don't think of Buddhists as being violent, and they didn't harm others physically, but they intended to put a violent image in people's brains nonetheless.Joj Y. edytował(a) ten post dnia 06.10.09 o godzinie 19:41

Temat: Why does one become prone to extremist views?

One might call that emotional terrorism.

Temat: Why does one become prone to extremist views?

It was for ME! :)))

Temat: Why does one become prone to extremist views?

Could we talk about Nazis for a change? I would feel more at home with that... :P

Temat: Why does one become prone to extremist views?

Michał K.:

By the way, what is your view on Fitna ?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=216_1207467783

It's excellent propaganda.

If you are a wieśniak from a small village in Poland, who's never ever come into contact with foreigners before, and find yourself in a strange cosmopolitan city such as London, and you worry that the sinister dark-skinned people you see around you will slit your throat, then it's the kind of thing you are likely to take very seriously.

Have you ever seen the film Borat? If so, I imagine that after watching the film you felt something like Borat felt in the house of the Jews.

Temat: Why does one become prone to extremist views?

Bernd Schreckenberg:
Could we talk about Nazis for a change? I would feel more at home with that... :P

I don't really think there is much point continuing the debate about Muslims.

If Michal wishes to discuss Islam, he should do a little research first, and not uncritically accept what he finds on 'hate' sites.

Temat: Why does one become prone to extremist views?

Warren, I will assume you are not aware of how strong of an insult the word you used is, so I will let it slide.

I'm getting tired now of explaining (4th time) that I don't have a problem with muslims as people, but the religions themselves. These people will not do anything to anyone, unless they are radicals. These exist in every religion. Some have more of them, some have less. Is you go to Iran or SA you will find more islamic radicals. If you go to the southern states, you will find active KKK. If you go to izrael you will see a jewish army with latest army technology taking apart a country which wasn't theirs to begin with.

I see a pattern here. Everything I said that shows the ridiculousness of a religion has either been called "propaganda" or not mentioned at all. None of you said anything to refute the points raised regarding abuse that is allowed by a widespread religion and in some places even backed-up by "law". You simply dismissed it by saying that not everyone does it and that Ahmadinejad is not able to run his country gracefully.

You even stooped as low as name-calling simply because you cannot justify the existence of religion in current times. Most believers know it's bullshit, but still practise because it's "tradition" or simply because of peer pressure.

You are right Warren, there is no point in talking more about religions, even though it is always at the core of any extremism.
Bernd opened a can of worms creating the thread while I was around. I, compared to many people, am not afraid to speak my mind. If I wasn't around you'd all give yourselves a few pats on the back in the presence of a big friggin pink elephant in the room.

If I did more research, I would read the koran, the bible and the torah. We all know how much crap I would find in each of the "holy books".

Christianity is a belief that a jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

Never mind the fact that you are born a sinner and throughout your whole life have to pay for the sin which Eve has put upon you.
------

Islam is a religion of peace where one protest in London revealed what a peaceful religion it is.















http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nqxP2bpF7I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFPVz9CwlP4 (lol posted by BNP)
Unless you see that as fake propaganda as well.
I do have to admit however, that a counter-protest was held by peaceful muslims on trafalgar sq

Jewish people in the western world have chilled out and usually stop practising beyond bar mitzvah. The ortodox are peaceful birds compared to radical islamists, although I'm not very fond of the occupation of palestine which is disappearing from the map since 1946 - and is another pink elephant no one is allowed to talk about..




Are all the above really propaganda? Are verses taken straight from the koran still propaganda? How much proof do you need to see, to notice how outdated these religions are? How their laws do not apply to a western way of life?Michał K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 06.10.09 o godzinie 23:52

Temat: Why does one become prone to extremist views?

Michał K.:
So many wars fought in the name of a non-existant deity...

Your kids wouldn't exist without them. Think grateful.Joj Y. edytował(a) ten post dnia 07.10.09 o godzinie 06:06

Temat: Why does one become prone to extremist views?

Some of us were waiting for violence to come from the Balkan states by now.

Temat: Why does one become prone to extremist views?

Joj Y.:
Some of us were waiting for violence to come from the Balkan states by now.

At least the Albanians took over as the strongest Mafia in Germany, kicking the Russians out. And that's something!

My former Albanian work colleagues were quite keen on putting a knife between my ribs. We had some arguments about not-stealing, non-cheating. One guy jumped at my throat for me making a positive comment about his German girlfriend ('You have a good looking girlfriend').

And without intention to get back on Muslim tracks: I just wonder, why more and more people leave Germany towards states like Wazyristan or whatever (even whole families as Spiegel non-propagandistic as always puts it), to become terrorists there. All the recent threats to German society were delivered via video-message from Al Quaida or the Taliban with a German in German warning the Germans. That seems a little odd to me...