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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Graduates in the US seem to be attracted to jobs that operate like federations. That's one reason why it would be hard to find a bad primary care doctor who makes much less than a good one.

It's my opinion that a large part of the graduates here learn how to navigate through systems better than how to cultivate their talent and creativity. So electrical engineers in the automotive industry here would already know their own job-market compensation values without having to ask at work or a party. They found out early by "networking." I think when it comes to personal earnings questions we all know what's conspicuous, and what feels right and maybe helpful to an aspiring person.
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Jarek
If you want to earn 5000 a month but you're not, you can still use the same 'question'- but it really is necessary to give the first thought/image/whatever comes to your mind. If you need to think before you answer- the answer won't do you any good (ie. it won't provide the reason as to why you still don't have that income).

You also summed my posts into:'Your market value (i.e. how much you are earning) does not depend on what an employer (any employer) wants to pay you, but rather on how much you think you are worth.' I think that what you're earning depends on you- whatever you call it.

Warren
I can assure you that I don't. Far from it.
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

People who have monopolies on the kind of work they do have some expectation to be able to say "What I earn depends on me. Pay me X, and hurry up before I change my mind."

Advocating for a wage you think you're worth only goes so far past affirmation rehearsals in the mirror, however. At some point you're looking at the exit door, they tell you to not let it hit you in the ass on your way out.

Imagery just doesn't have a consistent influence on earnings. If we reverse the logic that says what we earn depends on us and what we think we're worth, then we have to blame men, women, and children for their miserable circumstances as if they had willfully aligned themselves with them. A large segment of Africa's labor force is kids.
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Agnieszka C.:
Warren
I can assure you that I don't. Far from it.

And I can assure you that you do.
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Rafał Wołk

Rafał Wołk I'm not arrogant,
you're just offended
by my confidence.

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Agnieszka C.:

if you believe: 'If I imagine I'm worth 'X' PLN per hour, it doesn't follow anyone is going to pay me this amount.'
that's what you get. As simple as that.

I believe that I have a million dollar smile and a three million dollar personality to go along with it, unfortunately what I believe all that is worth, is only relative to what it's market value is.
If I think that my cat is worth a million dollars simply because it's the best god damned cat in the world on top of the $300 which I had to cough up just to bring it over the ocean, it doesn't necessarily mean that someone is going to pay $1,000300 for it... why not? Well, because there are millions of other cats who are probably just as priceless in the eyes of their owners. Some of them would be willing to part with 'em for a $5 piece of crack rock...
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Rafal Wolk:
I believe that I have a million dollar smile and a three million dollar personality to go along with it, unfortunately what I believe all that is worth, is only relative to what it's market value is. [...]
I don't think you were descriptive enough, Raf! :)
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

From your answers I can see I am misunderstood completely. But I'm really tired of this conversation (if you can call it that way) so let's just say that I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe, and let's leave chauvinistic remarks aside.Agnieszka C. edytował(a) ten post dnia 01.12.09 o godzinie 17:50
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Rafal Wolk:
unfortunately what I believe all that is worth, is only relative to what it's market value is.


Ooops. Raf - an English teacher shouldn't confuse "its" with "it's" - you had lived in America way too long! ;)

I think your market value may have gone down a bit. :)a-n-d-r-z-e-j C. edytował(a) ten post dnia 01.12.09 o godzinie 17:52
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Rafał Wołk

Rafał Wołk I'm not arrogant,
you're just offended
by my confidence.

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

a-n-d-r-z-e-j C.:
Rafal Wolk:
unfortunately what I believe all that is worth, is only relative to what it's market value is.


Ooops. Raf - an English teacher shouldn't confuse "its" with "it's" - you had lived in America way too long! ;)

I think your market value may have gone down a bit. :)

God damn it!
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Rafał Wołk

Rafał Wołk I'm not arrogant,
you're just offended
by my confidence.

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Jarek A.:
Rafal Wolk:
I believe that I have a million dollar smile and a three million dollar personality to go along with it, unfortunately what I believe all that is worth, is only relative to what it's market value is. [...]
I don't think you were descriptive enough, Raf! :)

humility is a highly valued character trait my friend...
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Ilter K.

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

We are able to decide what we worth.

When you sell something or look for a job, you don't only have a minimum but also an estimated maximum in your mind.
Sure, who wouldn't like to sell his/her cat for a million bucks... but are we living in a different World or what?
What kind of an example was that, Rafał? :))
Unless your cat has a special virtue, s/he has an average price, true, but still, you are able to decide selling it to that price or not.

We poor humans, lose the game too early. We set our goals according to averages of other helpless humans. And some other humans are working on those averages and use our energy.

Anyway, whatever the reality is, we shouldn't miss one point... we need agreements. Agreements or contracts means, there are 2 parts to have an agreement on something. Be it social security advantages, be it the montly payments, be it the closeness of the building to a forest... you STILL have the power to accept or not to accept the fee. We may continue until the cows come home, unless you accept this little but an important piece.
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Ilter K.

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Joj Y.:
[...] Imagery just doesn't have a consistent influence on earnings. [...]
But it may have a considerable influence in the long term.
I've seen many cases in my life, that the people with high expectations concerning money, are the ones usually who earn more than their counterparts.
Now, how to explain that?
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

ilter K.:
But it may have a considerable influence in the long term.
I'll buy that.
I've seen many cases in my life, that the people with high expectations concerning money, are the ones usually who earn more than their counterparts.
Now, how to explain that?
I guess it has to do with sustained streamlining of attention/concentration over a span of time. It happens. On the other hand, I would be mad if someone told me I might have a motivational deficit for not outweighing job market realities with my self-esteem and sense of purpose. Have you ever heard anyone say "that's the tuba player's Porche?" :))) (sorry...4:30 am here) hehe

I do believe in the power of will and positive thinking in a lot of ways.Joj Y. edytował(a) ten post dnia 02.12.09 o godzinie 11:14
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Sylwia Łubkowska

Sylwia Łubkowska Nauczyciel oraz
tłumacz j.
angielskiego

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

OMG, I've nearly drowned in the soda drink I'm having ;)

Agnieszka, do you have a boyfriend? If so (and if not, you will at some point), I'm sure you're worth a million dollars to him (and I'm sure you know the expression). Now, will you demand your million bucks? Will he give it to you? No? Well, tough sh*t then, he can't have you ;)

On a more serious note, how can one measure/estimate the value of your skills? Some hard skills can be evaluated (though still the end figure may turn out entirely different when applied all kinds of local variables) but other skills just can't be easily evaluated - you'd have to have a brain processing terabytes of information to figure out how exactly employing a certain secretary or receptionist is going to benefit your company - and it's definitely more to it than the value of photocopying skills. Will you put value to every smile she flashes at a customer, thanks to which (maybe) he will come back and generate more business/income for the company?

That's why there's something called 'going rate', which is good to know - and even without disclosing your own earnings, you should be able to figure it out somehow (it's not that difficult - and yes, it does require finding out how much other people earn).
On top of that, people know that a going rate only reflects the average quality / speed, etc. of your service, which you may exceed. If you exceed it (you have that flashy smile, which in professional jargon may be classified as 'interpersonal skills'), you're right to think you deserve more money for it. How much more? If you think you know that, good for you. You're more than welcome to advertise yourself or 'sell' yourself. It's your call - but if he agrees to the first thing you say, won't you feel you've underestimated yourself? If your call is too high, you might end up losing business (and if that means you won't put any bread on your table that night, it'll hurt no matter how worthy you consider yourself to be). That's why it pays to know the market and respect it, because you can’t beat market forces with your willpower.Sylwia Łubkowska edytował(a) ten post dnia 02.12.09 o godzinie 20:22
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Sylwia
When I asked for a pay rise I didn't say how much I wanted to earn per hour. But I DID get it nevertheless. I got what I wanted. That's what I'm talking about.
But I do agree with you and I do agree it's good to know the going rate, etc.
All I'm saying is that your income (be it from one source or many) depends on you and your self-worth, as well as your skills, abilities, experience etc. If you doubt your skills- it's also self-esteem issue, that's why I said what I said.
And really you think and say that it's other people deciding what you're worth- I say they are just mirrors of what you subconsciously think of yourself.
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

edit:
deleted postAgnieszka C. edytował(a) ten post dnia 03.12.09 o godzinie 21:18
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

This is true but only partially, I am afraid. You can say that our salary is a variable of our self-perception but at the same time it is limited to what the market offers (a finite level of money). You can try to shift towards it (hence the payrise), yet eventually you will hit the upper limit.
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Agnieszka C.:
All I'm saying is that your income (be it from one source or many) depends on you and your self-worth, as well as your skills, abilities, experience etc. If you doubt your skills- it's also self-esteem issue, that's why I said what I said.
And really you think and say that it's other people deciding what you're worth- I say they are just mirrors of what you subconsciously think of yourself.

As someone who employs others, I'd say that was bollocks.

It doesn't take simple and obvious economic facts into account.

Basically no employer will agree to making a loss by employing a third person.

How much an employer can pay someone is usually determined by factors outside his control.

Furthermore, why will an employer willingly agree to pay above the market rate if others are willing to work for the usual amount?
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Sylwia Łubkowska

Sylwia Łubkowska Nauczyciel oraz
tłumacz j.
angielskiego

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Agnieszka C.:
Sylwia
When I asked for a pay rise I didn't say how much I wanted to earn per hour. But I DID get it nevertheless. I got what I wanted. That's what I'm talking about.

Agnieszka, how come you didn't tell your boss how much you wanted to earn per hour and yet you got exactly what you wanted? Does your boss have psychic powers?

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that what you wanted was the satisfaction of getting any pay rise at all, however small. The pleasure of getting noticed and rewarded. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't have much to do with your self esteem (although it does to some extent, since it requires some courage to go and ask for the pay rise in the first place). But you didn't have enough of that courage to tell your boss how much you wanted to earn, so effectively you let him decide how much your work is worth.
All I'm saying is that your income (be it from one source or many) depends on you and your self-worth, as well as your skills, abilities, experience etc. If you doubt your skills- it's also
self-esteem issue, that's why I said what I said.

I don't doubt my skills - I know I'm a very good English teacher. I earn XX PLN per hour. I'd like to earn YY (i.e. 2x XX) PLN because I think I'm worth that much. My boss says no. And being the same very good teacher, I hop on the train and go to Warsaw, where my YY PLN demand is accepted straight away. Does it mean I'm worth more in Warsaw than I am in Olsztyn?

Edit: Logically speaking, I probably am, actually ;) But my skills haven't changed a bit by just changing location. (This reminds me of space travel and time/space warp where everything is hopelessly relative ;))

And really you think and say that it's other people deciding what you're worth- I say they are just mirrors of what you subconsciously think of yourself.

I never let other people decide what I'm worth. But sometimes I have to let them decide how much they will pay me (these are two different things). There were times when I earned Ł2.50 per hour because I didn't have the work permit and I was happy to have any work at all that would pay my bills. Do you think I thought of myself as being worth the meagre Ł2.50? Far from it, because at the same time the amount of free English language I was exposed to (coming mostly from native speakers) was worth some Ł100 a day (well, I'm just guessing) plus work and life experience was worth 10 times as much. I was a millionairess, only nobody could see it ;) Today I'm still using the skills I learned when I was earning my petty wages.Sylwia Łubkowska edytował(a) ten post dnia 03.12.09 o godzinie 22:37
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

This is long overdue, but I think everyone should press the button at least once ;)

http://dramabutton.com
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