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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Agnieszka C.:
Jarek A.:
Your professional skills are worth as much as someone is willing to pay for them. Not a penny more, not a penny less.

Well, not entirely. What someone is willing to pay you depends hugely on yourself- your self-worth, being open to money, etc. To put it different way: you get what you consider 'normal' pay for the job you're going to do. Otherwise you wouldn't agree to do the job.
If you don't agree to do the job for the money you're offered, you go do something else. You don't get paid for your professional skills what you think they're worth (in fact yo don't get paid at all), which proves my point.

What someone is willing to pay is based on their need for your skills, services, time, etc.
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Christian Kroczek

Christian Kroczek Tony Stark Sprzedaży
i Zarządzania
Relacjami z
Kluczowymi...

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Your professional skills are worth as much as someone is willing to pay for them. Not a penny more, not a penny less.

Well, not entirely. What someone is willing to pay you depends hugely on yourself- your self-worth, being open to money, etc. To put it different way: you get what you consider 'normal' pay for the job you're going to do. Otherwise you wouldn't agree to do the job.

Agree (with both of ye), unless... Unless the country is experiencing a recession, which undermines ALL rules regarding recognition of skills and qualifications, bonuses and promotions, etc.
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Ilter K.

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Rafał D.:
... To go further if we agree that nowhere people talk about their earnings, regardless if they are allowed or not.
I think I understood your point, though, after reading your explanatory messages.
If one comes to me and ask how much I earn for the various services I offer, I give them what they want, unless there's something making me uncomfortable... I don't know... the way that it was asked, and the person who asks could be my second thoughts on opening up.
On the other hand, I can't function if I don't tell what my fees are, because I am really selling something.
That's why your `Orange` example was very "out of nowhere". I have never seen such a bazaar, for instance.

But not everyone is selling services like I do... most of you guys have 9-to-5 jobs. We're not on the same side. Because you have to be "there" and sell your time to your employer. Me, not.
I just tell my fee. You like it, you buy it. You don't like it, you can go someplace else.

In that sense, your "orange" analogy "does not compute" for common jobs. Hence, no need to snap a sticker to the forehead with a price tag written on it.

One thing is sure, in the US you are being told how much you will earn when applying for a possition.
Not really.
To my experience, the payment/salary stuff left till the end, and considered as "conditions" or "details". I mean, wtf? "Details"? Are you kidding me?!
In Poland not. I understood this wrongly as talking about earnings, ok. But then, is this the only difference between the countries? This is still unclear for me.
I see. Well, I can't tell you one thing for sure, because I'm neither fully experienced in US, nor in Poland.
But I think you are wrong... it's not too different, and this "salary talk" is usually left off till the end of the recruitment process.
But if you are talking about the job ads, yes, there's a different "regulation" (or let's say `habits`) I see in Poland. And that might be caused by Poland, being a different country.
Maybe because there's no as much talk about "global company" in US as in Poland. MAYBE.ilter K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 28.11.09 o godzinie 14:06
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Jarek A.:
If you don't agree to do the job for the money you're offered, you go do something else.
Like work for sb else who is willing to pay you what you feel you deserve.
You don't get paid for your professional skills what you think they're worth (in fact yo don't get paid at all), which proves my point.
I think you do actually. Only on a subconsious level.
Why don't you get paid at all? How does it prove your point?
What someone is willing to pay is based on their need for your skills, services, time, etc.
I agree only partially.
It might be the case that what sb is willing to pay is EXACTLY what you subconsciously think you deserve for doing the job- sometimes hard to swallow, but it is the truth. Easy to check as well.
It might be the answer to the cases where two people doing the same job earn various wages.
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Agnieszka C.:
Jarek A.:
If you don't agree to do the job for the money you're offered, you go do something else.
Like work for sb else who is willing to pay you what you feel you deserve.
Which brings us back to my original point: you are worth as much as someone is willing to pay.
With one additional comment: not what you feel you deserve, but what they want to pay. Occasionally the two sums may be equal.
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Jarek
You are worth what you think you are- others are a reflection of that- that was my point.
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

It's a strange point.

If I imagine I'm worth 'X' PLN per hour, it doesn't follow anyone is going to pay me this amount.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 29.11.09 o godzinie 01:43
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Rafał D.

Rafał D. Head of Production,
Locon Sp. z o.o.

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Thanks Ilter for explanations. So, to summarize, firstly, it's different for full time jobs and freelancing. Secondly the US are more similar to Poland on this subject than I imagined.

World sucks ;D
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Rafał Wołk

Rafał Wołk I'm not arrogant,
you're just offended
by my confidence.

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Rafał D.:

Well, I don't get this comparision. Totally.

Rafał: Is 4. in opposition to 1. 2. and 3. or it is just my English skill?

no, no, Number 4 basically sums up the general outlook. For the most part, people just don't care [with certain exceptions of course] but for those who do care, number 1 - 3 are pretty much the general guidelines. Very GENERAL.
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Ilter K.

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Rafał D.:
World sucks ;D
That's true. :)

But on the other hand... put yourself into the other's shoes...

You have an `opening` for a job in your company. You want to recruit -let's say- someone fresh without a serious experience. You imagined about the salary -let's say- 10 tomatoes... that you are OK to pay.
There appeared 2 candidates... one of them is -let's say- a rookie, fresh out of the collage (or whatever) and the other one is a dude with 3 years of experience in the field.
You may either opt in:
1- negotiating with the rookie for 7 tomatoes max, or
2- nagotiating with the dude for 13 tomatoes max.
In this case, would you like to post an ad with: "A job for a serious person, salary:6 tomatoes*" and cut your own leg, because maybe your company is better off with the experienced duder?

People are not one kind, neither do the jobs.

The value of the money is sometimes relative as well.
If the rookie is the son/daughter of a rich person, s/he could say: "Who cares", or "Are you kidding me?" for 7 tomatoes.
Actually I'd say 7 tomatoes is not much as well... (hehe)

---------
* I gave this overly simplified example to explain my thought, I know that there are some indications in ads like: "The candidate must have at least 2 years of experience" etc.ilter K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 29.11.09 o godzinie 13:58
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

warren whitmore:
It's a strange point.

If I imagine I'm worth 'X' PLN per hour, it doesn't follow anyone is going to pay me this amount.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 29.11.09 o godzinie 01:43

Warren, maybe strange, but it's certainly true. And it's not about imaginig but rather feeling. But that's for a different discussion.
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

It isn't true.

People are paid the market rate according to the laws of supply and demand, and not how much they subjectively believe themseves to be worth.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 29.11.09 o godzinie 19:14
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Agnieszka, please answer this question (for me to better understand your point):

Even though I feel I should be earning $100.000* a month, I'm making less. Why?**

*gross/nett - choose one.
** for the sake of this discussion let's assume (and I know it's a long shot) that I don't totally suck at what I do.Jarek A. edytował(a) ten post dnia 29.11.09 o godzinie 18:43
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Jarek,
please finish this sentence without thinking about it:

I'm making less than $100.000 a month because...
(or in Polish: Zarabiam mniej niż $100 000 miesięcznie, bo...)

what's the first thing that comes to your mind?

Also: why should you be earning this much?

Warren,
if you believe: 'If I imagine I'm worth 'X' PLN per hour, it doesn't follow anyone is going to pay me this amount.'
that's what you get. As simple as that.
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Agnieszka C.:
Warren,
if you believe: 'If I imagine I'm worth 'X' PLN per hour, it doesn't follow anyone is going to pay me this amount.'
that's what you get. As simple as that.

No it isn't.

Unless you happen to live in fairyland.
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Agnieszka C.:
Jarek,
please finish this sentence without thinking about it:
this is actually my great flaw - I need to think to answer a question.
I'm making less than $100.000 a month because...
(or in Polish: Zarabiam mniej niż $100 000 miesięcznie, bo...)

what's the first thing that comes to your mind?
What if instead of $100.000 I put $5000? Would your question still stand?
Also: why should you be earning this much?

Warren,
if you believe: 'If I imagine I'm worth 'X' PLN per hour, it doesn't follow anyone is going to pay me this amount.'
that's what you get. As simple as that.
But this is exactly what you said.

Agnieszka,
if you tried to sum up all your posts in this thread in one sentence, the sentence would read something along the lines of:

Your market value (i.e. how much you are earning) does not depend on what an employer (any employer) wants to pay you, but rather on how much you think you are worth.

Pop quiz: can you see what's wrong in this sentence?

PS. I don't like answering questions with another question. Will try not to do it again.
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Andrzej S.

Andrzej S. Krok za krokiem, do
przodu.

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Gentlemen do not speak of money, unless they're up to sign an agreement (or something).

:P
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Ilter K.

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Agnieszka, I think Warren and Jarek accepts the highest bidder as the point of reference when it comes to the worthiness of talent+creativity+experience+time spent on the job.

As in: "If you have ever earned 10 apples max a month, that means that's what you worth".

Not as in: "OK, although maybe you have earned 10 apples, you might worth more".

So these guys took the shortest cut to put the imaginary situation in terms (some may call it "logical"), while you took the -ehem- feminine way :) (which is not bad at all, it's just not logical for a typical male brain) (hahahahaa)ilter K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 30.11.09 o godzinie 15:51
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Ilter
;)
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Temat: Transparency of earnings in different countries

Oh dear...
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