Temat: Polish attitudes to the British people

Alicja Efejska:

I think these urban legends would be easily ignored. There are more serious things that are happening there. They are constantly offended or treated like scum. Just yesterday I heard about another way the British invented just to humilliate Poles. They give every Polish person they meet a flyer that reads in Polish: Don't pee on the grass!

Polish citizens in the U.K. are treated far better by the government than foreigners in Poland.

The U.K. was also one of very few foreign countries to allow Poles to work there when you joined the E.U..

Anyway, I have a simple message for Anglophobes - don't come to England.

Temat: Polish attitudes to the British people

warren whitmore:
You don't generally get to hear the private opinions of foreigners unless you happen to be foreign.

This I agree with to some extent.

Most people, as you're saying, don't express their private opinions on foreigners, not at first at least. But if you manage to create some kind of "friendship"-like bond with them, or if you make the first move and express your thoughts on a given subject, in most cases they will respond in the same way.

I know from first-hand experience that you can get people to speak openly. I believe I've already mentioned that in some other thread.

Temat: Polish attitudes to the British people

Alicja Efejska:

warren whitmore:
Are you sure this is a productive conversation, Alicja?

Should I close the thread?

Don't know if it is productive, for sure it is candid - as it always is with you.

I wanted to discuss these things, but I believe the discussion has gone beyond certain boundaries of sensitivity and intelligent discussion into mudslinging.

Temat: Polish attitudes to the British people

warren whitmore:

Alicja Efejska:

warren whitmore:
Are you sure this is a productive conversation, Alicja?

Should I close the thread?

Don't know if it is productive, for sure it is candid - as it always is with you.

I wanted to discuss these things, but I believe the discussion has gone beyond certain boundaries of sensitivity and intelligent discussion into mudslinging.

Warren, I'm very surprised. I never thought you could be hurt so easily. It seems you just find it hard to face the facts. :(

Temat: Polish attitudes to the British people

Now I feel guilty. :(

I'm sorry, Warren. :)Alicja Efejska edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.02.08 o godzinie 18:04

Temat: Polish attitudes to the British people

warren whitmore:

Alicja Efejska:

warren whitmore:
Are you sure this is a productive conversation, Alicja?

Should I close the thread?

Don't know if it is productive, for sure it is candid - as it always is with you.

I wanted to discuss these things, but I believe the discussion has gone beyond certain boundaries of sensitivity and intelligent discussion into mudslinging.

My referee's whistle is at my lips but I haven't felt like blowing it yet. Carry on.

Temat: Polish attitudes to the British people

Alicja Efejska:
Warren, I'm very surprised. I never thought you could be hurt so easily. It seems you just find it hard to face the facts. :(

I'm not hurt at all.

(1) I'd like the discussion to be more intelligent (no mudslinging, no dogmatic sticking to one point of view no matter what).

(2) I'm not sure that being completely honest is necessarily a good thing. What I write could be used against me.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.02.08 o godzinie 18:26

Temat: Polish attitudes to the British people

Perhaps they perceived any criticism made as being too direct, and would have accepted what was said to them if it had been expressed in a more appropriate manner.

I think this is where the problem is. It's not that British people don't accept criticism, but one certainly has to be careful where they tread. As I've been reading various threads in this forum, I noticed numerous statements of 'self-criticism' (i.e. directed at the British) made by Warren, Steve H or J. I think there's a strong rule of 'I said that, so I accept that you may agree with however I have criticised my nation, though by no means do I invite you to go overboard on this'. The British are just more diplomatic about things like that than Polish and that's what they expect from others. While direct criticism feels like an attack for them.

In the same way, they avoid direct criticism of Polish people, by first probing the subject and asking 'what do you think about the Polish being so and so, do you agree?'. The thread of Pani Ola is an exception here, because her articles were direct and blunt criticism of the British, so I guess Warren felt excused from being polite. That's how I see it - correct me if I'm wrong.

Temat: Polish attitudes to the British people

I think, a lot of what's been said has been greatly generalized. I think that saying that Brits are this and Poles are that is seriously oversimplifying ... well... just about everything.
It is also a very common way of retaliation against any personal criticism to attack the counterpart in a personal way. This will definitely not contribute in any way to building a sensible dialogue.
I often come across a lot of anti-american sentiment online, not being an American myself I find it pretty amuzing sometimes. What I don't get, is people who have never met or had any interaction with people that they so eagerly critisize. Same goes for people that have had a chance to spend some time with foreign nationals, came across some less than pleasent fellows and now are basing their bias opinions on such experience.
No matter where you go, you will have the reasonable, the unreasonable and the total assholes. To base your opinions on a nation based on those short interaction is to say the least ignorant, unnatural and bizarre. Even when living abroad, it takes a long time to get a solid grasp on culture and habits of natives. As it was mentione in this as well as another thread. You will never find out real opinions of any nation by being a tourist, exchange student or a business associate.
I think that we should be glad that we have forums like this one, where we can, (to a certain degree) discuss our little cultural nuances. Anyway... to quote a certain anti-hero "Can't we all just get along!?" (Now this quote can either relax the atmosphere, or lead to riots, as it did in LA hehe).

Hope everyone has a great weekend! I know I will - President's Day!!! 3 Days off!!! woot woot! (it's the little things in life ya kno!)Rafal Wolk edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.02.08 o godzinie 19:10

Temat: Polish attitudes to the British people

warren whitmore:

Steve Jones:

warren whitmore:
So you don't bother with correcting grammar and pronunciation?

Don't people pay for English lessons to have people correct them?

I aim to give people what they want, including grammar and pronunciation.

In fact, grammar and pronunciation are part and parcel of what I wrote:

it doesn't matter so much what you say provided:

a. the other person has understood what you said in the way you intended.

b. your utterance has made a positive (if this was your intention) impact on the person you're talking to.

c. I suppose this is a summary of a and b: the transactional intention of your interaction has been met positively

Your grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation, lexis, idiom, tone, register must be up to fulfilling criteria a-c

In that case, if I find the terrible English of a sexy Polish woman in some way aesthetically pleasing, I shouldn't bother correcting her as it's having a positive impact on myself.

But that's not what someone would pay me to do in an English lesson

Is that really what I said??? Estoy mucho confusato.

I think in the example you gave it's the woman you find aesthetically pleasing rather than the terrible English.

Terrible English implies unsuccesful criteria a-c. So, in that case I might want to help the lady be successful in points a-c while focusing on her grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation, lexis, idiom, tone, and register.

Does that make any sense to anyone or am I one sandwich short of a very weird picnic??

Temat: Polish attitudes to the British people

Rafal Wolk:
I think, a lot of what's been said has been greatly generalized. I think that saying that Brits are this and Poles are that is seriously oversimplifying ... well... just about everything.
It is also a very common way of retaliation against any personal criticism to attack the counterpart in a personal way. This will definitely not contribute in any way to building a sensible dialogue.
I often come across a lot of anti-american sentiment online, not being an American myself I find it pretty amuzing sometimes. What I don't get, is people who have never met or had any interaction with people that they so eagerly critisize. Same goes for people that have had a chance to spend some time with foreign nationals, came across some less than pleasent fellows and now are basing their bias opinions on such experience.
No matter where you go, you will have the reasonable, the unreasonable and the total assholes. To base your opinions on a nation based on those short interaction is to say the least ignorant, unnatural and bizarre. Even when living abroad, it takes a long time to get a solid grasp on culture and habits of natives. As it was mentione in this as well as another thread. You will never find out real opinions of any nation by being a tourist, exchange student or a business associate.
I think that we should be glad that we have forums like this one, where we can, (to a certain degree) discuss our little cultural nuances. Anyway... to quote a certain anti-hero "Can't we all just get along!?" (Now this quote can either relax the atmosphere, or lead to riots, as it did in LA hehe).

Hope everyone has a great weekend! I know I will - President's Day!!! 3 Days off!!! woot woot! (it's the little things in life ya kno!)Rafal Wolk edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.02.08 o godzinie 19:10

Agree 100% Rafal.

And I'm not saying I wasn't to blame for any of this.

Temat: Polish attitudes to the British people

Steve Jones:
Is that really what I said??? Estoy mucho confusato.

I think in the example you gave it's the woman you find aesthetically pleasing rather than the terrible English.

Terrible English implies unsuccesful criteria a-c. So, in that case I might want to help the lady be successful in points a-c while focusing on her grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation, lexis, idiom, tone, and register.

Does that make any sense to anyone or am I one sandwich short of a very weird picnic??

You seem to suggest that what is incorrect is what does not have a positive effect on the listener.

Well let's say that I just happen to like a French accent in English, but not a German one.

Does that make a French speaker of English more correct than a German one?

Surely there must be more to 'correctness' than the subjective judgements of the listener.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.02.08 o godzinie 19:39

Temat: Polish attitudes to the British people

Incidentally, Steven, I didn't mean that you find the language in milk. If it were so, I would readily pay English Mums for their
milk.
Arsenal on my mind ...!

It seems like Arsenal have women's breasts on their mind or something. Whatever it is, tonight it isn't football.

Temat: Polish attitudes to the British people

Joj Y.:

warren whitmore:

Alicja Efejska:

warren whitmore:
Are you sure this is a productive conversation, Alicja?

Should I close the thread?

Don't know if it is productive, for sure it is candid - as it always is with you.

I wanted to discuss these things, but I believe the discussion has gone beyond certain boundaries of sensitivity and intelligent discussion into mudslinging.

My referee's whistle is at my lips but I haven't felt like blowing it yet. Carry on.

Would you like to be appointed a moderator here, Joj?

Temat: Polish attitudes to the British people

warren whitmore:

And I'm not saying I wasn't to blame for any of this.

No finger pointing, it's the nature of the beast.

Temat: Polish attitudes to the British people

warren whitmore:

Joj Y.:

warren whitmore:

Alicja Efejska:

warren whitmore:
Are you sure this is a productive conversation, Alicja?

Should I close the thread?

Don't know if it is productive, for sure it is candid - as it always is with you.

I wanted to discuss these things, but I believe the discussion has gone beyond certain boundaries of sensitivity and intelligent discussion into mudslinging.

My referee's whistle is at my lips but I haven't felt like blowing it yet. Carry on.

Would you like to be appointed a moderator here, Joj?

No, thank you. I was only kind of sticking up for you.

Temat: Polish attitudes to the British people

Joj Y.:

Would you like to be appointed a moderator here, Joj?

No, thank you. I was only kind of sticking up for you.

That was an offer, Joj, not sarcasm.

Someone other than myself should moderate threads on which I'm involved.

Temat: Polish attitudes to the British people

I didn't take you as being sarcastic, and you understood my referee's whistle perfectly, as you were in the thick of it at the time. I'm absolutely positive that everyone enjoys your group just the way it is.Joj Y. edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.02.08 o godzinie 20:18

Temat: Polish attitudes to the British people

What does it mean by 'moderate' in the context of GL
I noticed that something Keith had written seemed to have been edited by you Warren.

What are the rules here, apart from not speaking Polish?

Temat: Polish attitudes to the British people

warren whitmore:

Steve Jones:
Is that really what I said??? Estoy mucho confusato.

I think in the example you gave it's the woman you find aesthetically pleasing rather than the terrible English.

Terrible English implies unsuccesful criteria a-c. So, in that case I might want to help the lady be successful in points a-c while focusing on her grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation, lexis, idiom, tone, and register.

Does that make any sense to anyone or am I one sandwich short of a very weird picnic??

You seem to suggest that what is incorrect is what does not have a positive effect on the listener.

Well let's say that I just happen to like a French accent in English, but not a German one.

Does that make a French speaker of English more correct than a German one?

Surely there must be more to 'correctness' than the subjective judgements of the listener

Never used the word "correct" and never alluded to what is "correct". Not once.

What I did do was point out what, in my opinion, is the criteria of successful communication and therefore, what matters most.