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Temat: Poland and the Czech Republic:

I have just returned from a holiday in Prague.

I would be very interested to hear from Polish people, and foreigners, about how they would compare Poland and the Czech Republic.

Differences/similarities?
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Temat: Poland and the Czech Republic:

Most Poles will hate me for this but every time I'm in Prague I'm getting more and more convinced we should have raised our hands up and warmly welcome Germans, as Czech did it.Maria B. edytował(a) ten post dnia 25.03.08 o godzinie 23:56
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Temat: Poland and the Czech Republic:

Funnily enough, I didn't notice that many Germans when I was there.

Of course, English is the ligua franca, (as it is everywhere).
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Temat: Poland and the Czech Republic:

I meant 1938 in Prague and what we should have done in 1939.
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Temat: Poland and the Czech Republic:

Maria B.:
I meant 1938 in Prague and what we should have done in 1939.

I didn't get you.

The most famous British historian, AJP Taylor, is of the same opinion.
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Temat: Poland and the Czech Republic:

But as I wrote - Poles will hate me for having such opinion and guts to say it openly.
:)
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Temat: Poland and the Czech Republic:

Your opinion is common sense.

In 1939 Poland overestimated both its own strength and the willingness and ability of its western allies to provide assistance.

That's why millions of Poles were killed compared with thousands of Czechs.

This isn't what I wanted to discuss, however.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 26.03.08 o godzinie 00:29
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Temat: Poland and the Czech Republic:

Maria B.:
But as I wrote - Poles will hate me for having such opinion and guts to say it openly.
:)

No, we certainly won't hate you for saying that. At least I won't. In fact, this kind of questions have been raised more than once. What if we had surrendered at the very beginning of the war? What if there had been no Warsaw Uprising? I don't think there is anything improper in raising such questions - good for the future. On the other hand, I think the people who opposed the invader must have known better why they did it and they must have had some good reason for that.
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Temat: Poland and the Czech Republic:

Obviously the Nazis had to be opposed.

But only by those with the power to do so effectively.

Unless you believe in the concept of vainglorious blood sacrifice.
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Temat: Poland and the Czech Republic:

Yeah, sure. Poland was weak indeed, but the allies were to come with help. You know the rest.
Besides, take a simpler situation: suppose someone attacked your family,what would you do? Would you say "All right. Do whatever you wish' or would you rather stand to defend them?
Poland could have avoided an open war with the Nazis, but only on their conditions (give us the corridor to Gdańsk!.
Was England sure to win when they invaded Britain? Maybe yes, maybe no. But they stood up against them.
The Czech did what they thought was good for them at that time. Poland's history is different and hence our reaction was different.
As to evaluating one's chances of winning, don't forget about a certain secret pact and that the country was invaded from both directions (from the west and unexpectedly from the east).
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Temat: Poland and the Czech Republic:

Wendy Tweed:
Yeah, sure. Poland was weak indeed, but the allies were to come with help. You know the rest.

I've never 'bought' the concept of Western betrayal.

Considering the futile slaughter of WWI it was hardly surprising that neither England or France were all that keen on a return match in 1939.
Besides, take a simpler situation: suppose someone attacked your family,what would you do? Would you say "All right. Do whatever you wish' or would you rather stand to defend them?

You can only do what is in your power to do.

I believe the Danes, for example, surrendered in a few hours.

Of course they could have fought to the last man, but would this have achieved other than a massive pile of Danish corpses?
Was England sure to win when they invaded Britain? Maybe yes, maybe no. But they stood up against them.

Thank God that Britain did so.

But were Britain not an island?
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Temat: Poland and the Czech Republic:

Warren, history is not my strong point, but I can tell you one thing. We can have our opinion about the past, but the best way is to talk to people who lived at that time. Tell my grandma that her sister's death was stupid. However much she has cried for her since the war, not even once have I heard her saying that her sister died because of somebody's stupid decision. Nor have I ever heard anybody who took part in the Warsaw Uprising saying that it was unnecessary or sheer folly. They themselves felt that to rebel was the only right thing to do. Now we can think of all sorts of possible better scenarios.

Unlike you, I would defend my family so as not to let the invader kill them in front of my eyes. I'd rather die first.
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Temat: Poland and the Czech Republic:

Wendy Tweed:
Warren, history is not my strong point, but I can tell you one thing. We can have our opinion about the past, but the best way is to talk to people who lived at that time. Tell my grandma that her sister's death was stupid. However much she has cried for her since the war, not even once have I heard her saying that her sister died because of somebody's stupid decision. Nor have I ever heard anybody who took part in the Warsaw Uprising saying that it was unnecessary or sheer folly. They themselves felt that to rebel was the only right thing to do. Now we can think of all sorts of possible better scenarios.

Unlike you, I would defend my family so as not to let the invader kill them in front of my eyes. I'd rather die first.

I've always been fascinated by history, particularly WWII.

I've spoken to a fair few people who lived through this period, both Brits and Poles.

As a matter of fact I seek out such people.

I haven't stated that anyone's death was 'stupid'.

Given the choice it's preferable to die standing on your feet than on your knees, as was the case in the Warsaw ghetto uprising of 1943. It's unfortunate, but true, that however heroic the Warsaw uprising of 1944 was, it didn't achieve anything for Poland.

I don't agree with the old British public school maxim that 'it doesn't matter whether you win or lose but rather how you play the game'.
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Temat: Poland and the Czech Republic:

warren whitmore:

I don't agree with the old British public school maxim that 'it doesn't matter whether you win or lose but rather how you play the game'.

Interesting, it does explain a lot. I don't mean in a historical way. It's just one of those tiny cultural windows that gives me a small insight into the British culture.

Another opinion that is rather on an extreme side is that Poles should have sided with Hitler. I have heard that quite a lot even when in Poland. Reasoning that usually followed was, that we could have kicked the crap out of our eastern neighbor along side the nazi war machine and saved millions of Polish lives doing so.

It's hard to imagine this sort of line of thinking, yet it is not uncommon. I don't share that sentiment, my family was living in Powsin, right outside of Warsaw through out the occupation and like many other families, they too were hiding Jewish families in their basement. Siding with nazis, would mean giving them up, along with gypsys, homosexuals and other so called "pod ludzmi".

What I find really disturbing is the fact that, I could probably catch more heat for admitting that my family protected Jews, than stating that we should have sided with Hitler. Strange world.

I do agree, that it all comes down to historical differences between the Czek and the Poles. We do have a colorful past... they did invade our country at one point haha... yet another one, haha.. take a number... who's next? Sweden? Oh wait... it's been done already.Rafal Wolk edytował(a) ten post dnia 26.03.08 o godzinie 03:57
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Temat: Poland and the Czech Republic:

I say the Czech people are so much more relaxed. Whenever I spend a week or so in the Czech Republic, I'm amazed at how many people wear crappy clothes, drive obsolete cars, yet eat out more often than in Poland, have picnics at the weekend, and take their families for a hiking trip whenever they can. There's a small town, Koprivnice, where Emil Zatopek was born - not far from Novy Jicin. I discovered it while living in Cieszyn, on the Czech border. The town's got one of the most amazing museums (the TATRA museum, with cars, planes, you name it), and sports facilities even Warsaw can't boast of: tennis courts, basketball courts, outdoor and indoor swimming pools, hockey stadium, ski lifts - all open to the general public, and many of them almost for free. If you want to hike and see something really amazing, you can go to Stramberk to discover the famous slanting market square, and the "trouba" (tower), have something to eat and a glass of beer at a very reasonable price - they won't rip you off like in the Polish mountains where they add one złoty per every foot you have to climb, and visit the castle where they have open air theater. I mean, fuck it, Koprivnice is twenty times smaller than Katowice, and yet still more interesting.
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Temat: Poland and the Czech Republic:

warren whitmore:
This isn't what I wanted to discuss, however.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 26.03.08 o godzinie 00:29
Warren - but to answer your basic question - this is the thing that makes a difference. This is when you have to start. Plus some part of Czech's that was invaded by Poles.

As for nowadays differences - I agree with Tatiana. Czech people seem to have more of a Medittarenian nature than Poles. They enjoy everyday life. Poles don't.
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Temat: Poland and the Czech Republic:

Tatiana S.:
I say the Czech people are so much more relaxed. Whenever I spend a week or so in the Czech Republic, I'm amazed at how many people wear crappy clothes, drive obsolete cars, yet eat out more often than in Poland, have picnics at the weekend, and take their families for a hiking trip whenever they can. There's a small town, Koprivnice, where Emil Zatopek was born - not far from Novy Jicin. I discovered it while living in Cieszyn, on the Czech border. The town's got one of the most amazing museums (the TATRA museum, with cars, planes, you name it), and sports facilities even Warsaw can't boast of: tennis courts, basketball courts, outdoor and indoor swimming pools, hockey stadium, ski lifts - all open to the general public, and many of them almost for free. If you want to hike and see something really amazing, you can go to Stramberk to discover the famous slanting market square, and the "trouba" (tower), have something to eat and a glass of beer at a very reasonable price - they won't rip you off like in the Polish mountains where they add one złoty per every foot you have to climb, and visit the castle where they have open air theater. I mean, fuck it, Koprivnice is twenty times smaller than Katowice, and yet still more interesting.

That's more or less the impression I had, Tatiana.

So why the difference?

Why can't Poland be like the Czech Republic?warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 26.03.08 o godzinie 13:15
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Temat: Poland and the Czech Republic:

Maria B.:
warren whitmore:
This isn't what I wanted to discuss, however.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 26.03.08 o godzinie 00:29
Warren - but to answer your basic question - this is the thing that makes a difference. This is when you have to start.

It doesn't explain everything.

It doesn't explain why Polish women dress smarter than Czechs.

It doesn't explain why Poles are more religious than Czechs.

It doesn't explain why the Czech Republic would is more successful economically than Poland.

It doesn't explain why the Czech Republic would appear to be more 'foreigner-friendly'.

And so on.
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Temat: Poland and the Czech Republic:

warren whitmore:

So why the difference?

Why can't Poland be like the Czech Republic?warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 26.03.08 o godzinie 13:15

Beats me, Warren - must be people's mentality.
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Temat: Poland and the Czech Republic:

I worked with a Slovak guy at one point. A very cool, laid back dude. He told me once - Poland was under communism, while they were under communism "lite". Although they did have to deal with the Russian mini invasion, they remained under minimal "surveillance" from the brother bear. I think that can alter ones mentality a bit differently.
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