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Rafał D.

Rafał D. Head of Production,
Locon Sp. z o.o.

Temat: Integration

And the distances are much longer. USA was designed for car transport. Cities are built in totally different way than in Europe and therefore taking much more space. Highways having 16 lanes each way (8 local ones and 8 express ones) are nothing exceptional. And this endless suburbs (I haven't seen them during my stay in any big metro area unfortunatelly).

Besides, just take a look on Los Angeles Metro and Berlin Metro in the same scale. (I don't give NYC as an example because it's an "old city", from the urbanistic point of view much more "European" than the western ones.)Rafał D. edytował(a) ten post dnia 12.06.08 o godzinie 20:35
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Temat: Integration

Ha… yea.. I am glad you have mentioned the endless suburbs. See, I don’t think about things like that anymore, but it is something very strange. You are standing at a cross walk, about to walk across the street, what you don’t realize is that once you are on the other side, you are no longer in the town, city or even county that you were just in… on the other side of the street, very confusing at times.
Another thing that I just remembered was the saying “wrong side of the tracks” and how close to the truth it actually is. Very often train tracks separate a town into middle class side and poverty side.
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Temat: Integration

ilter Kalkanci:
When I read some posts in this thread, I felt like saying: "You should feel lucky, what if you'd look like Turkish and try to get a job/life in Poland?"
hehe

The thing is, "A Brit living in Poland" sounds perfectly ok to me. You are also Christian. You look as pale as a Pole (hahaha). You don't mind eating Pork. People (guys with muscles and short hair) I'm described as "an Alien" in official documents. And I can guess what it means. Although I am supposed to be 'unknown' (according to that term), people has their own prejudices about my nationality.
There are some places in Poland (like any other European country) If I say loudly from where I am, I might get killed with no other reason. It is enough to be Turkish, Iranian or whatever other "weird" country.
If I will have a problem with a local who parked his car in front of my garage, I will either be framed as a terrorist, or an "aggressive Turk" (which perfectly fits to the idea of being "Barbaric Islamist" etc.)
But again... I am lucky too... because "I don't look Turkish". hehe. (That's another subject, but there's no need for me to talk about stereotypes. Because that's a very natural thing. When you don't know too much about a thing, but when there are things that you've heard about it before, you tend to believe in what you've heard. You don't go and read books or even search an info in internet).

I, as an alien, have to bear everything what comes to my way. If I can't bear it, I just leave.


well,
i dont eat meat, dont smoke, dont drink alcohol at all,
dont interested in football or any other sport
dont read newspapers and dont watch TV!
i dont suit anywhere! ;))))
and it isn't really matter i can speak polish fluently
i dont understand many of polish anyway (not only polish ;))
so it isnt really matter what nationality you are
and what is your skin color
if you can accept others habits you are very welcome :)
but i know in Poland sometimes it's more important how u looks like than who you are inside. But maybe it isnt only polish problem, maybe it's world-wide problem...im afraid of
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Temat: Integration

Ewa Małgorzata Siembida:

But maybe it isnt only polish problem, maybe it's world-wide problem...im afraid > of

It's definitely not a Polish problem, but it is a really annoying trait. I really despise all the social status nonsense.
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Ilter K.

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: Integration

Ewa Małgorzata Siembida:
well,
i dont eat meat, dont smoke, dont drink alcohol at all,
dont interested in football or any other sport
dont read newspapers and dont watch TV!
i dont suit anywhere! ;))))
No, it doesn't mean that... It means:
You are not a man!!!
hehe
Kidding. I also feel different than the crowd most of the times, and that's natural/good. We can not talk about diversity, if we -different people- are not in a society.
but i know in Poland sometimes it's more important how u looks like than who you are inside.
It is almost same everywhere. But wherever there is diversity, there is more respect and tolerance.
Poland (at least the people in the major cities) will also get used to it with the time.
But maybe it isnt only polish problem, maybe it's world-wide problem...
Yes, it is not unique to Poland.
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Beata Kornasiewicz

Beata Kornasiewicz HR Specialist at
YOOX Group,
Bologna/Milano

Temat: Integration

warren whitmore:
It would also be interesting to ask Poles how 'integrated' they feel in the U.K.. and other 'foreign' countries.

We have Poles resident in the Netherlands and Italy here, for example.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 08.06.08 o godzinie 14:32

I live in Italy for some months, for 2 years I was travelling between Poland and Italy and I think I get known quite well Italian habits and their typical ways of living, everyday problems and behavioural standards... and I have to admit that I took a very important decision to be MYSELF, not to be an Italian girl, nor Polish one. I feel integrated with Italians, I speak Italian and have no problems with everyday reality but I don't think that I would like to be pure Italian whatever it means. My working environment is multinational and I prefer it than any other national...You have a small world near you and a lot of different points of view deriving from different cultures and different ways of understanding the reality.
I don't like when people think "the Poles are stubborn so you are stubborn too" and when I am compared to other Polish people. I can reply only for myself, not for all the Polish population.
That's more or less that I would like to tell... ;)
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Beata Kornasiewicz

Beata Kornasiewicz HR Specialist at
YOOX Group,
Bologna/Milano

Temat: Integration

Oh...one thing...

I noticed that in Italy being foreigner could be experienced like "being a citizen of the second category" and in Poland the situation is totally different... if you are a foreigner you can be proud of it; as if coming from aboad was more interesting than living in Poland from the Polish point of view of course.

That's my fresh observation.Of course there are some political reasons of that situation in Italy, but I think not only. The roots are deeper...

What do you think about it?
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Temat: Integration

I agree.
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Beata Kornasiewicz

Beata Kornasiewicz HR Specialist at
YOOX Group,
Bologna/Milano

Temat: Integration

but i know in Poland sometimes it's more important how u looks like than who you are inside.

:)))))))))))))))))))

In Italy when you are going to do shopping in a supermarket you must remember to put your best clothes and don't forget about the make up!
My American friends were really schocked after their first italian shopping.

And it is common to comment appearence of the others, even worse -if you have too big ears or a small mountain on your nose they will find you and tell you all the truth!

;)
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Temat: Integration

Beata Kornasiewicz:
Oh...one thing...

I noticed that in Italy being foreigner could be experienced like "being a citizen of the second category" and in Poland the situation is totally different... if you are a foreigner you can be proud of it; as if coming from aboad was more interesting than living in Poland from the Polish point of view of course.
Are you sure that Romanians, Russians, Ukrainians or Vietnamese would agree with you?
That's my fresh observation.Of course there are some political reasons of that situation in Italy, but I think not only. The roots are deeper...

What do you think about it?
Italians are nationalists, they're proud of being Italian and they always have, do and will treat new immigrants as second category citizens. It may be due to the fact that most of them (Italians) speak crap English and demand that everyone else learns Italian. If you don't - they'll gonna 'ass-rape' you. Been there, done that, seen other immigrants being screwed with, plenty of times. The way they (Italians) think can be summed up as: it's either the Italian way or the highway.
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Rafał D.

Rafał D. Head of Production,
Locon Sp. z o.o.

Temat: Integration

Beata Kornasiewicz:
What do you think about it?

I agree. Although funny (ok, it's rather a black humour) is the fact that foreginers feel offended if they are not treaten better in Poland. (edit: But as Jarek said, it probably works in the "west vs east" way. Meaning we would feel better in Romania too probably.)
Beata Kornasiewicz:
In Italy when you are going to do shopping in a supermarket you must remember to put your best clothes and don't forget about the make up!
My American friends were really schocked after their first italian shopping.

And it is common to comment appearence of the others, even worse -if you have too big ears or a small mountain on your nose they will find you and tell you all the truth!

;)

It's enough to see Italian television to notice this. This method works allover the world BTW.Rafał D. edytował(a) ten post dnia 17.06.08 o godzinie 14:41
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Beata Kornasiewicz

Beata Kornasiewicz HR Specialist at
YOOX Group,
Bologna/Milano

Temat: Integration

Jarek A.:
Beata Kornasiewicz:
Oh...one thing...

I noticed that in Italy being foreigner could be experienced like "being a citizen of the second category" and in Poland the situation is totally different... if you are a foreigner you can be proud of it; as if coming from aboad was more interesting than living in Poland from the Polish point of view of course.
Are you sure that Romanians, Russians, Ukrainians or Vietnamese would agree with you?

I don't know...that's my question. I know only one Romanian girl in Poland and people admire her.
That's my fresh observation.Of course there are some political reasons of that situation in Italy, but I think not only. The roots are deeper...

What do you think about it?
Italians are nationalists, they're proud of being Italian and they always have, do and will treat new immigrants as second category citizens. It may be due to the fact that most of them (Italians) speak crap English and demand that everyone else learns Italian.

I think that nowadays it may be also due to the fear... they have problems with managing the hundreds of immigrants.

If you don't - they'll gonna 'ass-rape' you. Been there,
done that, seen other immigrants being screwed with, plenty of times. The way they (Italians) think can be summed up as: it's either the Italian way or the highway.

I disagree in some points. My experience in Italy was always very nice even when I was able to spoke only several words in Italian. At job we usually speak English and many of people that I met spoke it almost fluently.
I wrote that living in Italy "could be experienced like <<being a citizen of the second category>>" as I observe the people of different nations, from different countries and also Italians, but I didn't mean my personal experience.

Thay are proud of being Italians, yes, and it's ok. Why not?
I can be proud of being Italian and I can admire other nations.

I wanted to underline the differences of the own nationality's perception.

And I'm sure that you can find your own way in Italy. I found it without implementing Italian way of living and without being outsider.
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Temat: Integration

Beata Kornasiewicz:
Jarek A.:
Are you sure that Romanians, Russians, Ukrainians or Vietnamese would agree with you?

I don't know...that's my question. I know only one Romanian girl in Poland and people admire her.
This is a great example of how important it is to actually get to know a person before making general, stereotype based judgements.
Do an experiment: ask someone you know in Poland ('cos you're in Italy now) to go out and ask first 10 people they meet in the street about their opinion on, say, Romanians in Poland. You can do the same in Italy - I guarantee that the results won't differ much.

No further questions.
The roots are deeper...
Precisely.
I think that nowadays it may be also due to the fear... they have problems with managing the hundreds of immigrants.
Illegal immigration is definitely a serious problem in Italy.
I disagree in some points. My experience in Italy was always very nice even when I was able to spoke only several words in Italian. At job we usually speak English and many of people that I met spoke it almost fluently.
I can only repeat what I've written a few lines above: it is crucial to get to know a person before making a judgement.
I can be proud of being Italian and I can admire other nations.
They don't admire other nations (I am generalizing here, there are exceptions from the rule)
And I'm sure that you can find your own way in Italy.
I have: respect the local customs but be yourself.Jarek A. edytował(a) ten post dnia 17.06.08 o godzinie 19:08
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Temat: Integration

Jarek A.:

I have: respect the local customs but be yourself

Apply this rule anywhere in the world and you will find yourself among some good people.Rafal Wolk edytował(a) ten post dnia 17.06.08 o godzinie 19:08
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Beata Kornasiewicz

Beata Kornasiewicz HR Specialist at
YOOX Group,
Bologna/Milano

Temat: Integration

>> it is
crucial to get to know a person before making a judgement.

You're right.
This is why I don't like much talking about the nationalities' differences...It is necessary to use some level of stereotypes, to built categories and general statements. There are also some statistics and one's personal experience may comply with them or not.

I introduced my question at the beginning about perception of one's country inspired by the opinion I had heard on tv: if you want be a star in Poland it's enough to be a foreigner and speak a little Polish with a strange accent, if you want to make success abroad you should speak the local language and accept the foreign customs. And I don't maen only Italy.

Of course this is a generalization but maybe it reflects a little the Polish approach to being Polish.
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Temat: Integration

Beata Kornasiewicz:
>> it is
crucial to get to know a person before making a judgement.

You're right.
This is why I don't like much talking about the nationalities' differences...It is necessary to use some level of stereotypes, to built categories and general statements. There are also some statistics and one's personal experience may comply with them or not.

I introduced my question at the beginning about perception of one's country inspired by the opinion I had heard on tv: if you want be a star in Poland it's enough to be a foreigner and speak a little Polish with a strange accent, if you want to make success abroad you should speak the local language and accept the foreign customs. And I don't maen only Italy.

Of course this is a generalization but maybe it reflects a little the Polish approach to being Polish.

It does, but this is hardly the fault of us 'foreigners' that we sometimes get 'star' treatment.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 18.06.08 o godzinie 12:47
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Lidia K.

Lidia K. +

Temat: Integration

warren:

It does, but this is hardly the fault of us 'foreigners' that we sometimes get 'star' treatment.

I think it also depends how much you like to be exposed as different than the rest.

(anybody interested in continuing the discussion?)
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Temat: Integration

This thread is rather on the 'heavy' side, but well worth reviving.
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