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Rafał
D.
Head of Production,
Locon Sp. z o.o.
Temat: Integration
Do you think that people who think different are less civilized? ;)Hehe ok sorry, I won't do this again. ;)
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Violetta P.:
To me the most tolerant place, in the cultural sense, is Lausanne though many people would disagree. I was impressed with a gallery of different nationalities and styles, peacefully co-existing and co-operating. Amazing!
I would have to say NYC no matter what, I am so impressed by the fact that people around here don't kill each other every morning during the commute. According to the U.S. Census Bureau there are 175 languages being spoken in NYC and over 35% of it's population is foreign born that is huge considering that NYC is a home to over 8 million.
Lower Manhattan especially, you can find a Mosque, Polish church and a Synagogue within sight.Rafal Wolk edytował(a) ten post dnia 10.06.08 o godzinie 11:38
Ilter
K.
Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...
Temat: Integration
I tend to believe in what Rafał just wrote.And in general, I find Americans more tolerant to other nationalities and appearances.
Rafał
D.
Head of Production,
Locon Sp. z o.o.
Temat: Integration
I find Europe more tolerant than US in "theoretical" factor and less in "practical" factor ;) Meaning: in US people just say they don't tolerate something and in Europe they say they do but actually they don't and prove it by their acts.
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Do you know the U.S.?Actually, it's very true that in the U.K. hardly anyone will say directly if they are offended or annoyed about something.
The person causing offence is generally left to work it out for him or herself.
Which must be something of a problem for the less perceptive of immigrants to the U.K..
Rafał
D.
Head of Production,
Locon Sp. z o.o.
Temat: Integration
I was in the US for few months but maybe not in a typical "republican" state (the most "republican" were countries of Pennsylvania) so my impression may not be full. As for Europe I know only Germany and France but I believe I know the "general attitude" from media and generally from everywhere. (IMHO all European countries are extremely more similar to each other than to US.)On the other hand I was very surprised about the scale of racism so it's not that simple. But again, it's not seen in an "offensive" way, it's kind of.... normal there. Hard to explain.
Generally what I said is more true when we compare NYC and London I guess than when we compare small towns and countries (in the American meaning).
Edit:
Can't wait for what Rafał wants to add ;)Rafał D. edytował(a) ten post dnia 10.06.08 o godzinie 17:10
Rafał Janta aj em ju ar
Temat: Integration
Rafał D.:
I find Europe more tolerant than US in "theoretical" factor and less in "practical" factor ;) Meaning: in US people just say they don't tolerate something and in Europe they say they do but actually they don't and prove it by their acts.
I wouldn't exactly say the US as such is any more tolerant than Europe. Nowhere else have Christian fundamentalisms grown in power as much as in the US. Take Creationists for one. I find America to be extremely puritan ... but after all that's how it all started.
You're right - one have to make a distinction between big cities and 'the rest' of the country though.
Rafał
D.
Head of Production,
Locon Sp. z o.o.
Temat: Integration
But that is what I say. They are Christian fundamentalist with their beliefs but at the same time they have friends or neighbours with completely different beliefs and actually do nothing with it except talking they don't accept it.That was only my impression after a short stay ofcourse. And again as you said: it's hard to talk about the US in a general way.Rafał D. edytował(a) ten post dnia 10.06.08 o godzinie 17:22
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take a deep breath....Christian fundamentalist are not strictly limited to your typical W.A.S.P families. They are of all backgrounds. I do agree, it is at this point (unfortunate as it is) the most powerful religious force in the U.S. reaching approximately 80 million members (almost ¼ of the country, when they vote, they make all the difference, so there goes the separation of church and state idea). True, they are predominantly white Americans and majority of them are from the middle states but you can find pockets in large cities as well. When it comes to tolerance in the U.S. it’s an extremely complex issue. What one must keep in mind is the fact that up until mid 70’s people of color still had to sit in the back of the bus, drink from different water fountains, use different bathrooms and lynching someone was still rather common and violators were hardly ever convicted. Hate crime was still something that was a dream of many yet just as far away as the end of the cold war. In big cities it was a different situation, yet not that different. Immigrants and people of color were able to live and work in their communities (ghettos sprouted all around the U.S.) but more often than not violence was something of an every day thing. Newark riots, LA riots, Harlem, Philadelphia and The Move organization etc… entire cities engulfed in fires and close to marshal law type situations. This is in our life times. People who have experienced horrible injustice from hands of white man are still around, families who have lost their members in horrible ways are still here to remember, it will take another generational gap until these opened, still bleeding wounds even start to scar over. Yet we see it happening. It’s a very strange situation and time period for America right now, the economical downfall has created such a vast gap between the rich and the poor that the issue of race is slowly starting to become the issue of class. Middle class America is slowly disappearing and poverty is creeping into majority of households. Those who 15 – 20 years ago had an O.K life style with a home, kids, two cars and father being able to support it from a single paycheck are now well in debt, with both parents working, sometimes two or three jobs. This situation has forced the issue of race to be put on a back burner since more and more whites, unable to afford to live in a “nice” part of town are now moving into ghettos and poor neighborhoods. Zoning and rezoning of certain city spots that once were crack and crime infested is making ghettos even more multi cultural but at the same time making it very hard for a lot of blue collar workers to find employment in rural areas. This is a subject that one could write a book about.
Rafal, you have mentioned Republicans. We covered this already on a different thread, but to come back to it just for a moment. Republicans, although not the most considerate of the political bunch, are not to be mistaken for neo-cons who are now running the show. Even amongst the Republican ranks, the current administration has lost most of it’s support. Right now, the Dubya administration holds far less support, than Nixon during his impeachment hearings. In my opinion there is absolutely no difference between Reps, Dems or any other abstract fractions that supposedly know better what is best for us.
Rafał
D.
Head of Production,
Locon Sp. z o.o.
Temat: Integration
That's why I put the names between ""s. I just don't have a different name for the groups (uptown and downtown? middle states and coasts? whites and colors? it works even less).The pity is we don't have a person on the group who lived both in the US and in Europe. Or do we?
That's why it will be hard to define differences because something that looks normal for you Rafal can look bizzare for us, Europeans.
(My example was "weird" rasism of 17yo kids: they talked normally, worked normally together but for example ate separately. And it wasn't actually about ideology, it was simply because they were from different worlds, society groups, and had more in common with the people from their group so were spending time within their group. So first thing that surprised me was that it is that strong among the young generation and the second that it's not at all that offensive how I taught it "normally" is. And many things "normal" in the American way seemed surprising for me.)
OK, is this an offtopic or not?
Ilter
K.
Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...
Temat: Integration
Rafał D.:Rafał, I haven't lived there as long as I lived in Europe, but I can clearly say -when it comes to the ease of integration-, US and Europe is incomparable.
The pity is we don't have a person on the group who lived both in the US and in Europe. Or do we?
Although I know, lately it started to be painful to live in US (even for some American citizens), it is incomparable.
US is a different world with its own rules. It doesn't even have an official language. Its base had sat on different grounds.
You can experience such guys that you can never guess their nationality, you can hear the strangest English accent you've ever heard, but the guy will tell you: "I am American". Think about it... why would he choose to say that, while its clear he started to live there 6 months ago.
I mean... Come on!! :)
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Rafał D.:
(My example was "weird" rasism of 17yo kids: they talked normally, worked normally together but for example ate separately. And it wasn't actually about ideology, it was simply because they were from different worlds, society groups, and had more in common with the people from their group so were spending time within their group.>
OK, is this an offtopic or not?
haha.. That’s a pretty funny thing to notice, actually it is a very weird situation. It's pretty much what I have mentioned before, racial integration is still a fairly new and fresh thing. Inter city kids are definitely a lot more accustomed to dealing with other nationalities and races. You said that you were on a summer work program right? Was it kids from the same town, city or state? Or was it pretty random? It makes all the difference.
Rafał
D.
Head of Production,
Locon Sp. z o.o.
Temat: Integration
There were kids from surrounding cities (mostly hispanic and black) and from surrounding "country" (mostly wasp). I believe.... I might created only two groups and divided people into them because it was the simpliest thing to do though.
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Rafał D.:
There were kids from surrounding cities (mostly
hispanic and black) and from surrounding "country" (mostly
wasp). I believe.... I might created only two groups and divided people > into them because it was the simpliest thing to do though.
No, that’s fine, nobody is expecting you to recall and name all nationalities or their backgrounds hehe.. that would be annoying haha..
Have you ever been to summer camps in Poland? Usually kids from same towns or cities stuck together, they would find things that they have in common – in Poland it would be football teams for most part. Usually kids from smaller towns would gang up against kids from bigger neighboring towns for one reason or another and then all the kids from small towns and villages would go against the kids from Warsaw haha… it’s pretty much the same idea with the exception here kids find other things in common like – race for example.
Another thing is, the difference between city kids and kids raised in the suburbs is much greater here. Majority of city kids here, have never been camping, hiking, and hunting. They haven't seen a cow or a chicken in real life. From my experience of trying to drag some of my friends "into the wild" here is a quote from one of them "black people don't like mosquitoes". hehe.. so there it is for you, it's the mosquitoesRafal Wolk edytował(a) ten post dnia 10.06.08 o godzinie 19:20
Rafał
D.
Head of Production,
Locon Sp. z o.o.
Temat: Integration
Yes, that's what I'm saying about the "different worlds". But for me, European, it seemed as racism because skin color was one of the characteristics of each group. So as I said, it's not racism in the ideological way but rather racism (understood as a dividing people by the colour of their skin) connected with the "shape" of the society, with "classes" and all this background.Geez this is hard...
Anyway. Taking this as an example. European and US backgrounds are so different that without understanding it many things may seem wierd.
To generalize it and to comment your last paragraph. My observation was that the US are more... poled (? don't know the right word but it's simply perfect here, meaning everything is on two opposite poles). In every aspect the diferences are very big and always there are two groups of opposite sides. And in Europe everithing is closer to the middle. That's what I would say. (And that's because we are based on the rewolution in France and you are based on wild west and so on and so on... ;D )
I think we really need to start another thread about this things.
(BTW, are mosquitoes a kind of wasp? ;D )Rafał D. edytował(a) ten post dnia 10.06.08 o godzinie 19:40
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Rafał D.:>>
(BTW, are mosquitoes a kind of wasp? ;D
komary? hmm.. not sure. haha..
I see what you are saying.Rafal Wolk edytował(a) ten post dnia 10.06.08 o godzinie 20:09
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Listen up! People do integrate! I`m going on holiday and a friend of mine has just asked me to bring him a Tunesian woman with big tits! Isn`t it a good example of integration?:D
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Violetta P.:a plastic one ? :)
Listen up! People do integrate! I`m going on holiday and a friend of mine has just asked me to bring him a Tunesian woman with big tits! Isn`t it a good example of integration?:D
Ilter
K.
Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...
Temat: Integration
But whats wrong with Polish women with big tits? :P :)I think your friend must be 'integrated' to Tunisia, if he is interested in exotic women :)
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