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Lidia K.

Lidia K. +

Temat: If a Pole is not complaining, they are probably in a...

If a Pole is not complaining, they are probably in a coffin already.

love this quote! :D

taken from http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/aleksandra_lojekma...

by HeavenlyHejare, Comment No. 1083189

I'm starting this tread not to interfere with Warren's crusades, as this changes the focus from the Brits to Poles

Do you consider yourselves as complainers? I do admit that I struggle with it and then any encounters with usually non-grumbling foreigners make me realize it even more.Lidia K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 05.02.08 o godzinie 14:12
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Temat: If a Pole is not complaining, they are probably in a...

Lidia K.:
love this quote! :D
Do you consider yourselves as complainers?

I used to be in Poland in Germany :) After moving to the UK (or to be precise, to NI) I ceased grumbling ;) One reason was that people here are so relaxed about things that grumbling doesn't get you anywhere and just ruins the day. It is actually striking when I go back to either PL or DE and people seem to moan about every-bloody-thing. "The bus was late by 2 mins, this violates Rule nr 23.1 of Something, blah, blah, blah". The Germans excelled at this... Poles I think are generally more anger-laden and most of the time it isn't directed against anything specific ;) Some sort of global frustration "Weltschmerz" or something like it.

In NI people and things are laid back so the maximum level of annoyance expressed in public is a wide smile and maybe a remark along the lines "how typical" :)Marcin B. edytował(a) ten post dnia 05.02.08 o godzinie 17:07
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Temat: If a Pole is not complaining, they are probably in a...

Marcin B.:
Lidia K.:
love this quote! :D
Do you consider yourselves as complainers?

I used to be in Poland in Germany :) After moving to the UK (or to be precise, in NI) I ceased grumbling ;) One reason was that people here are so relaxed about things that grumbling doesn't get you anywhere and just ruins the day. It is actually striking when I go back to either PL or DE and people seem to moan about every-bloody-thing. "The bus was late by 2 mins, this violates Rule nr 23.1 of Something, blah, blah, blah". The Germans excelled at this... Poles I think are generally more anger-laden and most of the time it isn't directed against anything specific ;) Some sort of global frustration "Weltschmerz" or something like it.

In NI people and things are laid back so the maximum level of annoyance expressed in public is a wide smile and maybe a remark along the lines "how typical" :)


Very true. I remember how shocked I was during my first visit to Poland after 3 months spent in the UK. It was then actually, when I realised how Poles love to moan, grumble and are generally aggressive towards one another. People looked at me as at some kind of a weirdo when I smiled at them in a supermarket or in a street and after one hour of shopping I was simply exhausted with the people shouting, fighting because "they were first in the line", because "you spent much more than we had agreed beforehand". Uhh.. Or mad drivers.. That was really tough.

And you know what? There's even something in the tone, the melody of our language that makes it sound bitter and aggressive sometimes. Now I can see (hear) that and a couple of years ago when an English friend of mine told me so, I was astonished and couldn't believe it.Patrycja P. edytował(a) ten post dnia 05.02.08 o godzinie 15:17
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Temat: If a Pole is not complaining, they are probably in a...

I whinge all the time.
Probably says more about me than my nationality.

I don't think that complaining is altogether a bad thing. If you tolerate shit you get shit.

I'm not sure what Poles complain about, apart from politics, as it isn't something that I notice. But they seem to tolerate what Brits or Germans might call anti-social behaviour, however this might be because most people do it themselves...

Or do you mean just complaining about life, back-ache, the weather, etc?
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Temat: If a Pole is not complaining, they are probably in a...

I don't really think the definition of anti-social behaviour varies from nation to nation. Shit stinks all the same no matter where you go. However Poles grumble anywhere, anytime and it is always best to grumble about poor financial condition of your family, so I heard ;P
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Steve Jones

Steve Jones Business English
Trainer, Translator,
Proofreader

Temat: If a Pole is not complaining, they are probably in a...

Complaining is fine if there's a point to it. You bought a TV, it doesn't work, you take it back. You earn too little, you change jobs, you earn more. Your French car broke down, you sell it, you buy a German one. That kind of thing.

Now then, the thing that reaaaaaaaaalllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyy gets me here is "indirect complaining". You bought a TV, it doesn't work, you moan incessently and kick it out the window. You earn too little, you stay in the same job, and blame the government. Your French car broke down, you keep it and blame the French (I must admit I've done that from time to time!).

What I really can't stand is this fatalistic kind of moaning "nigdy nie będzie lepiej" and that kind of thing.

Dunno really if Poles are more negative than Brits.

whadaya think?
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Temat: If a Pole is not complaining, they are probably in a...

Dunno really if Poles are more negative than Brits.

whadaya think?

I don't think so, apart from certain issues such as the economy and politics.
Regarding your job problem theory, that you should just go out and
change it. That is OK today in a big city as there are shortages of workers. It wasn't always the case though, and probably still isn't in small towns.
Plus, you can't just 'get on your bike' to find a job if you have a family to support.

P.S. I'd go for a Japanese carSteven H. edytował(a) ten post dnia 06.02.08 o godzinie 07:25
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Temat: If a Pole is not complaining, they are probably in a...

well going for a japanese car is the thing to do :D on this we can agree I presume
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Steve Jones

Steve Jones Business English
Trainer, Translator,
Proofreader

Temat: If a Pole is not complaining, they are probably in a...

Steven H.:
Dunno really if Poles are more negative than Brits.

whadaya think?

I don't think so, apart from certain issues such as the economy and politics.
Regarding your job problem theory, that you should just go out and
change it. That is OK today in a big city as there are shortages of workers. It wasn't always the case though, and probably still isn't in small towns.
Plus, you can't just 'get on your bike' to find a job if you have a family to support.

Didn't say it was easy. What is for sure, tho: sitting at home going "kurwa mać, nie mam pracy, spieprzony rzad" ain't gonna help ya!!

Sorry, I used a bit of Polish there... Did anyone notice? ;))

P.S. I'd go for a Japanese car[edited]Steven H. edytował(a) ten
High cost of service and spare parts. That's why I went German in the end. And I'm a happy bunny!
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Temat: If a Pole is not complaining, they are probably in a...

High cost of service and spare parts. That's why I went German in the end. And I'm a happy bunny!

Most of the factories and suppliers are in Europe now anyway so surely they are no long too difficult to get.

My mum had one of these 20 years ago. I learned to drive in it.
Great! However, we nearly bought a second model that was going cheap, simply to use for parts, as they were so expensive.

http://images.google.pl/images?hl=pl&q=suzuki+sc100&lr...

In fact, when I see some of the old monsters that people have imported to Poland from Germany I sometimes wonder if they have
actually considered the expense of getting spares, particularly when we are talking about BMWs or Audis.

Now that is something to complain about!Steven H. edytował(a) ten post dnia 06.02.08 o godzinie 15:24
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Temat: If a Pole is not complaining, they are probably in a...

Steve Jones:

Didn't say it was easy. What is for sure, tho: sitting at home going "kurwa mać, nie mam pracy, spieprzony rzad" ain't gonna help ya!!

Sorry, I used a bit of Polish there... Did anyone notice? ;))


I did ;) You should get a yellow card for using forbidden language ;)

>> > ten
High cost of service and spare parts. That's why I went German in the end.

Does it mean tahat you prefer German cars or you keep eyes closed to your wallet? :)) I know about going Dutch when we talk about those in oposite to extravagant lifestyle :) (my smile enclosed when written).
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Temat: If a Pole is not complaining, they are probably in a...

Lidia, as you brought up that pani Ola woman again, I would really, really like to know to what extent you believe her views of 'the English' are representative of educated Polish people.

Her kind of opinions were not formed in some kind of vacuum.

I've asked the same question 3 times before, and have yet to receive a reply.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 07.02.08 o godzinie 02:28
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Temat: If a Pole is not complaining, they are probably in a...

Warren, as it's already been said many times in here and in other posts/groups, p. Ola's opinions are her own and her own only. I consider myself an averagely educated Pole and do not agree with what she said. Neither do any of my friends who I have talked to about p. Ola.

Take her article, replace British with any other nationality (Polish, Italian, German, French, you name it) and you'll have yourself a perfect match. It is obvious that people during everyday activities (going shopping, walking the dog, asking for/giving directions, etc.) do not use quotes from Shakespeare/Mickiewicz/Dante/Goethe. Then a Highly Educated person, a foreigner, arrives in your country and goes something like this:

My dear, I am sincerely worried about you and about how you speak your language. It is your mothertongue, the language of your ancestors and your should cherish it as well as all of your cultural background, because the Queen might just pay you an unexpected visit. Or simply because people might think you are thick.Jarek Adamowski edytował(a) ten post dnia 07.02.08 o godzinie 07:54
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Temat: If a Pole is not complaining, they are probably in a...

Jarek Adamowski:
Warren, as it's already been said many times in here and in other posts/groups, p. Ola's opinions are her own and her own only. I consider myself an averagely educated Pole and do not agree with what she said. Neither do any of my friends who I have talked to about p. Ola.

I don't believe things are as simple as you suggest, Jarek.

For example, if you give an opinion, it's pretty hard to judge whether this is the idiosyncratic personal opinion of Jarek Adamowski, or simply the kind of thing that most Poles of a similar age and background to yourself are likely to say.

Regarding pani Ola, I've browsed quite a few forums on goldenline, and found a fair few people with broadly similar opinions.

Take for example the question of the world 'instrumentalisation'. I used to do a lot of proof reading for Polish translators, and have had many similar pointless arguments about whether words actually 'exist' in English, some of which were quite protracted. I have also consistently argued with Poles writing in English that they should adopt a less formal style, and attempt to make their writing more 'user friendly'.

I believe there is a gulf in understanding between Polish academics and native speakers regarding what is 'correct' English, and what constitutes appropriate style.

I will set up a thread to discuss these points.

As I stated earlier, hardly anyone forms their opinion in a vacuum.
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Temat: If a Pole is not complaining, they are probably in a...

warren whitmore:
Jarek Adamowski:
Warren, as it's already been said many times in here and in other posts/groups, p. Ola's opinions are her own and her own only. I consider myself an averagely educated Pole and do not agree with what she said. Neither do any of my friends who I have talked to about p. Ola.

I don't believe things are as simple as you suggest, Jarek.

For example, if you give an opinion, it's pretty hard to judge whether this is the idiosyncratic personal opinion of Jarek Adamowski, or simply the kind of thing that most Poles of a similar age and background to yourself are likely to say.
I've expressed my opinion that happens to be identical to that of most of my friends.
Regarding pani Ola, I've browsed quite a few forums on goldenline, and found a fair few people with broadly similar opinions.

Take for example the question of the world 'instrumentalisation'. I used to do a lot of proof reading for Polish translators, and have had many similar pointless arguments about whether words actually 'exist' in English, some of which were quite protracted. I have also consistently argued with Poles writing in English that they should adopt a less formal style, and attempt to make their writing more 'user friendly'.
I believe there is a gulf in understanding between Polish academics and native speakers regarding what is 'correct' English, and what constitutes appropriate style.
They have their heads way too far up their asses.
I will set up a thread to discuss these points.

As I stated earlier, hardly anyone forms their opinion in a vacuum.
Universities and, in general, the academic world IS a sort of vacuum. I know that from first hand experience. That was one of the reasons why I don't work at university anymore. No flexibility whatsoever.Jarek Adamowski edytował(a) ten post dnia 07.02.08 o godzinie 13:04
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Lidia K.

Lidia K. +

Temat: If a Pole is not complaining, they are probably in a...

warren w.:
Lidia, as you brought up that pani Ola woman again, I would really, really like to know to what extent you believe her views of 'the English' are representative of educated Polish people.

Her kind of opinions were not formed in some kind of vacuum.

I've asked the same question 3 times before, and have yet to receive a reply.[/edited]

Warren, I can't relate to your question really as I don't have much first hand experience with 'the English' and don't really discuss it with my educated friends.

My education in linguistics taught me however that there is a difference between language performance and language competence. Native speakers naturally have the latter one, whereas their performance is sometimes surprising in terms of strict grammar rules that we SL learners get into our heads.

Going back to complaining, a perfect reason would be pronunciation of 'the English', so different to that from the coursebooks :)Lidia K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 07.02.08 o godzinie 14:08
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Temat: If a Pole is not complaining, they are probably in a...

Here is my very humble opinion on this matter. I am Polish... I don't like to complain. I am a strong beliver in the "life is way too short so move on and stop dwelling" idea. Any time I feel like bitching about something... well... I just think about people world wide that would give their right leg to be in my position.

Smile! It's FREE!
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Alicja Efejska

Alicja Efejska Lektor, PEN

Temat: If a Pole is not complaining, they are probably in a...

warren whitmore:
Lidia, as you brought up that pani Ola woman again, I would really, really like to know to what extent you believe her views of 'the English' are representative of educated Polish people.

Her kind of opinions were not formed in some kind of vacuum.

I've asked the same question 3 times before, and have yet to receive a reply.[edited]warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia
Warren,
to answer your question I can assure you that I do not share Pani Ola's opinion. I've been to England several times and I've never ever had this kind of feeling. On the contrary, during my last stay 2 years ago, I had the privilege to do a course for teachers at Cambridge University,I was virtually elated when I was listening to some of the native speakers there. Their English sounded so perfect!!!
However, I have to admit that during my travels to England, the only contacts I had were with academics and professionals and on some occasions I had some brief exchanges with strangers there,but they sounded good English to me.
Well, I really do not know where pani Ola got this idea of English people using English incorrectly or poorly. Maybe it's different if you meet people from the lower classes of the society, I never had such contacts, so I can't say.
Take it easy Warren, we all admire the English world and culture. :)
Cheers!
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Temat: If a Pole is not complaining, they are probably in a...

Lidia K.:
Warren, I can't relate to your question really as I don't have much first hand experience with 'the English'

I find it rather sad that your profession is connected with English, yet you have had little contact with English people.

Just a few questions:

Is English the exclusive property of the English (and native speakers of other countries within the Anglosphere), or the international lingua franca?

Is it possible to separate the English language from 'the English', by which I mean, aren't language and culture inseperable?

Doesn't language represent little more than the history of a particular tribe of the human species?warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 08.02.08 o godzinie 01:31
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Stan K.

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