Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Adam L.:
Polish football "nazis" are just local patriots (i.e. showing their allegiance to the club & the city), not racists or Jew-haters. Sure, we do have real Nazis, but that's not the football crowd.

Well, in the original documentary I posted, there does seem to be a connection between hooliganism and racism. One of the hooligans interviewed starts to explain how black people shouldn't be in Poland. The interviewer points out that there aren't any blacks in his town anyway, so what's the problem? The hooligan says, 'I just don't like the colour of their skin. The black man should know his place.'

And I remember all those years ago when I first arrived and the skinhead thing was worse then... I remember seeing grafitti 'Polska dla Polakow' and I remember thinking to myself 'Polska is for the bloody Polakow' couldnt see anyone else around me on the streets. I chuckled to myself imagining a Polish skinhead getting off a coach in London. In for a bit of a shock, mate!

Remember I used to take the coach sometimes to get back home. Whenever it drive throught the black parts of London like New Cross, the mainly Polish coach crowd would start gawping out the window and the comments would start: 'o tyle murzynow!' 'to jest Afryka!' etc

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Patrycja P.:

is the country, where you can see them wearing clothes with the SS or swastika emblems, they openly express their views, gather in public places, the business of nazi music and films underground production/distribution is running extremely well and there's no reaction to that even if it is illegal. Where in the world, apart from Poland, can you see swastikas as the "masterpieces" of graffiti "artists"? And you know what? We are so used to seeing them everywhere in Poland that we don't even notice them, but believe me, for a foreigner it is shocking, so is it a surprise when the first thought that appears is: "Poland must be a racist country"?.
Patrycja P. edytował(a) ten post dnia 10.10.08 o godzinie 11:08

I don't understand? I live in Poland, and I have never seen people who wear clothes with the SS or swastika emblems. I very often visit our stadions, and there are no such signs. Maybe, it was different some years ago.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Well, in the original documentary I posted, there does seem to be a connection between hooliganism and racism. One of the hooligans interviewed starts to explain how black people shouldn't be in Poland. The interviewer points out that there aren't any blacks in his town anyway, so what's the problem? The hooligan says, 'I just don't like the colour of their skin. The black man should know his place.'

And I remember all those years ago when I first arrived and the skinhead thing was worse then... I remember seeing grafitti 'Polska dla Polakow' and I remember thinking to myself 'Polska is for the bloody Polakow' couldnt see anyone else around me on the streets. I chuckled to myself imagining a Polish skinhead getting off a coach in London. In for a bit of a shock, mate!

Remember I used to take the coach sometimes to get back home. Whenever it drive throught the black parts of London like New Cross, the mainly Polish coach crowd would start gawping out the window and the comments would start: 'o tyle murzynow!' 'to jest Afryka!' etc

My thoughts exactly.

I've never got this 'Polska dla Polaków' thing either.

Poland must be one of the most homogeneous countries in the world.

I reckon the Polish white power skins must be the most pathetically cowardly organisation in the world.

If they want to defend their race, or whatever it is they're into, they should do so on the streets of South London, or some American prison. Then we'd get to see how brave and hard they really are. Fighting a race war against blacks in Poland is a pretty soft option.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 12.10.08 o godzinie 11:45

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

warren whitmore:

Marek Szpitun:
It was a very similar documentary on Discovery "The real football factories - international" here is an episode from poland http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42plidAWbhM

Danny Dyer is a complete wanker.

I'd love to see him get a good kicking.

It was very intersting and .... funny film. I think it takes him much time to find such dangerous match. Or even footbal fans wanted to see themselves on Discovery.
What a pity! In Poznan, you can find many woman and children during all matches.Michał H. edytował(a) ten post dnia 12.10.08 o godzinie 12:02

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Michał H.:
I don't understand? I live in Poland, and I have never seen people who wear clothes with the SS or swastika emblems. I very often visit our stadions, and there are no such signs. Maybe, it was different some years ago.

If you've visited the statiums, haven't you seen the white power crosses on the banners?

Have you ever seen Nazi and anti-Jewish graffiti, for example in Kraków?

Have you never heard anti-Jewish chants when teams form Lódz play?

Have you ever seen Nazi tattoos?

I've noticed all this.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 12.10.08 o godzinie 11:54

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Patrycja P.:

Marek Szpitun:
Patrycja, please tell me where did you last see this kind of behaviour?

As I know wearing any emblems, signs related to SS, nazi and all this thing in public is forbidden by the law.

Brilliant, yes, it is forbidden and I wrote that too, but is the law respected? Haven't you ever met guys with "88" or white crosses on T-shirts sitting in a pub? If not, lucky you, I had this "pleasure" last year, and mind you, it wasn't "osiedlowa knajpa".

I've never met - and I'm 31 years old.Michał H. edytował(a) ten post dnia 12.10.08 o godzinie 11:54

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Michał H.:

Brilliant, yes, it is forbidden and I wrote that too, but is the law respected? Haven't you ever met guys with "88" or white crosses on T-shirts sitting in a pub? If not, lucky you, I had this "pleasure" last year, and mind you, it wasn't "osiedlowa knajpa".

I've never met - and I'm 31 years old.

I have.

It was (is(?)) a reasonably sized sub-culture, at least in Szczecin.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Patrycja P.:
Rafał, especially for you: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Y332Qn8sZoQ&feature=related

there are many more

I've seen something similiar on TV. Once or even twice during all present year.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

warren whitmore:

Michał H.:
I don't understand? I live in Poland, and I have never seen people who wear clothes with the SS or swastika emblems. I very often visit our stadions, and there are no such signs. Maybe, it was different some years ago.

If you've visited the statiums, haven't you seen the white power crosses on the banners?

Some years ago, I've seen it. But I was too young to understand it. Maybe I forget about it.

Have you ever seen Nazi and anti-Jewish graffiti, for example in Kraków?

Is it still there?

Have you never heard anti-Jewish chants when teams form Lódz play?

OK. Nowadays, it is very old - and I forgot about it. I'm sure - they even don't understand it!

Have you ever seen Nazi tattoos?

Ok. Some years ago. But it's minority. I have some friends, who comes from other countries. They have never had bad experience from racism.

I've noticed all this.

Michał H. edytował(a) ten post dnia 12.10.08 o godzinie 12:13

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Michał H.:

I have some friends, who comes from other countries. They have never had bad experience from racism.

That's very hard to believe. (That they have never had a bad experience from racism).

I don't experience racism, because I'm white.

I know perhaps 20 or 30 people living in Poland with non-white skin pigmentation.

I don't know a single one who hasn't experienced racism.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Maybe the fact, that you have more friends. And of course the fact, that we live in a different cities?

I don't say, that we don't have a problem with racism. But I say - that it is definately minority.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Steve Jones:

I remember seeing grafitti

'Polska dla Polakow'

"...ziemia dla ziemniakow a ksiezyc dla ksiezy" I think it's the complete thing hehe... I'd agree with the last part about sending priests to the moon...

and I remember thinking to myself 'Polska is for the bloody Polakow' couldnt see anyone else around me on the streets. I chuckled to myself imagining a Polish skinhead getting off a coach in London. In for a bit of a shock, mate!

See, here is the conundrum that drives me up the wall. I know people here in the states that feel and think in same terms, even after living abroad in the most diverse part of the world for years and years. I have a word for them - buraki, but that doesn't change the fact.

Remember I used to take the coach sometimes to get back home. Whenever it drive throught the black parts of London like New Cross, the mainly Polish coach crowd would start gawping out the window and the comments would start: 'o tyle murzynow!' 'to jest Afryka!' etc

exactly - murzynowo, malpy, dzikusy itp... this is terminology used by Polish immigrants living in places abroad... I don't get it either. Talking a lot of smack but never out loud or in English. It is cowardly and absolutely pathetic. Recently on one of the groups related to the US someone said something to the effect: "harlem is not that bad, it's clearing out and the Dominicans are moving out slowly as well" I just asked - what makes you so different and better from Dominicans?
Such an odd thing... but to be fair, it's not a Polish thing either. Other ethnic groups hate for same reasons - race, religion or just difference in opinions.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Michał H.:
Maybe the fact, that you have more friends. And of course the fact, that we live in a different cities?

Szczecin and Poznań have a different 'klimat'. But not that different.

I've been to quite a few Lech Poznań v Pogoń Szczecin matches, even in Poznań.

I wouldn't say that the supporters were so different.

I don't say, that we don't have a problem with racism. But I say - that it is definately minority.

I don't think anyone's saying that it isn't a minority.

But that minority can be quite visible, particularly if you go to football matches.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

warren whitmore:

But that minority can be quite visible, particularly if you go
to football matches.

To be a bit fair, I wouldn't expect to see sober people when going out to a bar.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

warren whitmore:

Michał H.:
Maybe the fact, that you have more friends. And of course the fact, that we live in a different cities?

Szczecin and Poznań have a different 'klimat'. But not that different.

I've been to quite a few Lech Poznań v Pogoń Szczecin matches, even in Poznań.

I wouldn't say that the supporters were so different.

I don't say, that we don't have a problem with racism. But I say - that it is definately minority.

I don't think anyone's saying that it isn't a minority.

But that minority can be quite visible, particularly if you go to football matches.

Yeah, football matches are just the kind of safety valve that are visible and - since the violence is channeled there in high 'density', people find it shocking. But I agree with what Patrycja said, a lot of hatred of various kinds is being cultivated underground. Like, I know Olsztyn has been a quite robust MW branch, but an average person wouldn't know that just by walking the streets. They had a field day under the realm of R. Giertych's post, using public money to recruit gimnazjum and high school kids. The volcano kind of seems asleep now (or not?) but I'm sure it's just what they want to achieve with the public while waiting for better times and another opportunity.

Also, I wouldn't dismiss racism in Poland as a minority: it may look this way only because coloured people living in Poland are themselves a minority. Maybe we wouldn't stone black peope on the street or point fingers at them stright away (though im not so sure about the latter), but statistically speaking, with such a person settling down in Poland, various racial attacks are only a matter of time. I don't have too many friends like that, but my student's son goes to primary school with a black boy, who, quite predictably, soon earned a nickname 'Bambo'. Now, I'm sure that majority of parents / other people wouldn't see anything wrong with this. After all, we remember that cute Bambo nursery rhyme. And nobody's hurt him physically. Yet. Perhaps we should wait till he reaches adolescence.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Fuck hooliganism. This pic was taken this morning:

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

I'll make a long post on this subject.

(More on the subject of race than football hooliganism, although the subjects are linked to a certain extent).

This kind of thing has been discussed here before, but it has usually ended up degenerating into petty and stupid arguments.

Also, I don't think that many people are willing to discuss the subject openly and be honest about it.

I'm quite happy to do so.

About neo-Nazism in the U.K. - it isn't really a British vice. Hitler was a great admirer of Britain. The Nazis attempted to recruit British P.O.W.'s into the Waffen SS Legion of Saint George, and never got the unit to a strength of over 30 men, despite a concerted campaign of threats and inducements.

People have tried setting up various neo-Nazi organisations but these have never attracted more than a miniscule number of cranks and loons.

The B.U.F. (British Union of Fascists) attracted significant support in the 30s, but I don't think this was ever a true 'Nazi' organisation, Moseley (Max's Dad) finding his inspiration in Mussolini rather than Hitler.

King Edward VIII, (who was forced to abdicate), is believed by some to have had Nazi sympathies, and his wife was possibly a German agent. That's why he was thought 'unsuitable' for the monarchy, and was sent to be governor of the Bahamas during WW2 where he could do as little harm as possible.

The main reason why Nazism never took off in the U.K. is, as George Orwell pointed out, people would laugh. Germans take themselves seriously, the English, as a rule, do not. Therefore if some loon with a silly moustache started ranting and raving about being the master race, how we must fight against world Jewry and so on, people would be inclined to take the piss. The same with the goosestep. It would remind people of John Cleese and the Ministry of Silly Walks.

More to follow .....

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Sylwia Łubkowska:

Also, I wouldn't dismiss racism in Poland as a minority: it may look this way only because coloured people living in Poland are themselves a minority. Maybe we wouldn't stone black peope on the street or point fingers at them stright away (though im not so sure about the latter), but statistically speaking, with such a person settling down in Poland, various racial attacks are only a matter of time. I don't have too many friends like that, but my student's son goes to primary school with a black boy, who, quite predictably, soon earned a nickname 'Bambo'. Now, I'm sure that majority of parents / other people wouldn't see anything wrong with this. After all, we remember that cute Bambo nursery rhyme. And nobody's hurt him physically. Yet. Perhaps we should wait till he reaches adolescence.

Racism in Poland:

First of all, I'd like to state that almost everyone, myself included, is racist to some degree of other. No-one is a tabula rosa, free of any kind of prejudice.

As far as Europe is concerned, as a rule of thumb, the further East and South you go, the more racist people tend to be.

Poles are probably more racist than Swedes or the Dutch, but less so than Russians or Greeks.

I've met little or no blatant racism among young, educated Poles, but quite a lot from the less well-educated and the older generation.

I'd also say that sometimes attitudes from even well-educated Poles towards racial minorities can be extremely naive, but generally speaking, no harm is intended.

Among the bulk of the population, attitudes are probably little different to those of English people in the 1950s, before mass immigration to the U.K..

Few Polish people, who have lived solely in Poland, have had much contact with non-whites. Virtually everyone under the age of fifty, living in a major British conurbation, has had extensive contacts.

The same is true for many other European countries.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

True. Which makes another good reason for Polish people to go to work in countries such as the UK, to get some experience and see that black or Indian people don't bite. And I welcome the sight of more and more black people on Polish streets, on TV, etc. Globalization and our being in the EU helps, and I also have a great faith in our young, educated generation. But, unless some major political / economic change happens, it is highly unlikely for Poles to ever get close to the melting pots of the UK or the US. And when it comes to general attitudes to minorities, we really have to learn the tolerance at 'analogue speed'.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

British skinheads, hooligans and Oi:

Skinheads started in the U.K.in the 60s.

Originally it drew its inspiration from black music, particularly ska.

The movement revived in the late seventies/early eighties.

The first bands were two-tone, such as the Specials and Selector, and were very much mixed-race and vehemently anti-racist.

Later a sub-genre of punk emerged 'Oi'.

This was a white, working-class thing.

The first such band was Sham69, followed by the Angelic Upstarts, and then harder edged, more violent bands such as the Cockney Rejects, the 4 Skins and the Last Resort.

There was one neo-Nazi band, Skrewdriver, which was the start of the 'Blood and Honour' skinhead movement, but they emerged later, and never had (as far as I'm aware) much of a following.

I'm of that generation, and used to watch some of these bands live. My brother was more into it than me, he played in a band, wrote a fanzine, and knew some of the characters involved.

The skinhead style was massive at that time, and for a couple of years was by far the largest youth movement. The football 'ends', for example at Pompey, consisted almost entirely of skinheads.

There is considerable controversy about how right-wing and 'nasty' 'Oi' was. On the positive side, Jimmy Pursey, the lead singer of Sham69 was more a middle-class 'poseur' than a Nazi. The Angelic Upstarts were socialist working-class Northerners.

I was living in Birmingham at the time, and used to know a few black skinheads. The racist skins at that time wore red boot laces to identify themselves, and this included the black skins. If asked why they wore red laces they'd reply, "we don't like Pakis".

Although bands like the Cockney Rejects and the 4-skins had a very aggressive image and following, they never had any time for the BNP, (British National Party), refering to them as the 'German' National Party.

Anyway, 'Oi' ended with something of a 'bang', when the 4 skins and the Last Resort played in Hamborough tavern, Southall, an Asian part of London. The venue was attacked and burnt down by the locals amidst massive rioting. Skinheads were blamed, record labels wouldn't touch 'Oi' bands, and skinheads became public enemy No1.

By about 1982 skinheads in the UK became passe, and a new 'casual' style was adopted on the football terraces.

It was (and still is) quite a considerable shock for me to find Polish youth interested in English styles and music that had become unfashionable in their country of origin 25 years previously.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 12.10.08 o godzinie 21:02