Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

These are people from where you live, Steve.

Lechia Gdansk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwDPVsxfWMs

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Patrycja, please tell me where did you last see this kind of behaviour? As I know wearing any emblems, signs related to SS, nazi and all this thing in public is forbidden by the law. I remember an incident from last year when during the football match between Legia and Jagielonia technical referee spotted this kind of sign it was a white power cross. The match was stopped then they removed the flag with this sign and they were allowed to play again.

All I’m trying to say is that of course this problem still exists but please don’t describe Poland (Warsaw) like it was German ghetto from second world war.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

I'm not really looking for this kind of thing, but white power crosses and so on are quite common at football grounds.

As is extreme racist chanting.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Marek Szpitun:

It was a very similar documentary on Discovery "The real football factories - international" here is an episode from poland http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42plidAWbhM

Danny Dyer is a complete wanker.

I'd love to see him get a good kicking.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Marek Szpitun:

Maybe Steve and Warren will write their opinion.

London - racist?!?

I'd say it's one of the most tolerant major cities in the world.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

warren whitmore:

Steve Jones:
I found this a fascinating watch... I mean I've heard that this problem exists, but as I never really go to football matches, don't live in a shithole town and never really hang out with the lokal Karky/ Nazi. skinhead kids, I never really notice any of this.

From the Ross Kemp on Gangs series:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ross+kemp+...

Is this kind of stuff as widespread as the programme makes it appear?

I don't think such groups are confined to 'shithole' towns, unless you define the trojmiasto, Kraków and Warsaw as 'shithole' towns.

Some of the worst hooligans in Poland are Arka Gdynia, Lechia Gdansk, Cracovia and so on.

Going to matches in Poland, I'd say >95% of the time there's no trouble at all. And if there is some kind of disturbance, it doesn't usually involve anyone who doesn't want to be involved.

Ya, you’re right Warren 95%. Once I was accidently involved in quite serious riot despite I was in this ‘safe sector’. It was 2005, 3th division game.

When trouble does break out it's handled in an extremely amateurish and incompetent manner by the police and local security companies.

and in this case it was extremely amateurish and ...

As for the Lechia hool they were quite good and Danny Dyer is a wanker.

(...) I'd love to see him get a good kicking.

It was close when he was trying to speak with some Juve fans.Marek Szpitun edytował(a) ten post dnia 10.10.08 o godzinie 13:02

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

warren whitmore:

Marek Szpitun:
Maybe Steve and Warren will write their opinion.

London - racist?!?

I'd say it's one of the most tolerant major cities in the world.

I'd never say that. Maybe next time I'll write some opposite examples showing tolerance, friendly attitude, etc ... of Londoners.

[Edit]
Like Rafal said, it' very difficult subject.Marek Szpitun edytował(a) ten post dnia 10.10.08 o godzinie 12:28

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Marek Szpitun:
Patrycja, please tell me where did you last see this kind of behaviour?

As I know wearing any emblems, signs related to SS, nazi and all this thing in public is forbidden by the law.

Brilliant, yes, it is forbidden and I wrote that too, but is the law respected? Haven't you ever met guys with "88" or white crosses on T-shirts sitting in a pub? If not, lucky you, I had this "pleasure" last year, and mind you, it wasn't "osiedlowa knajpa".

please don’t describe Poland (Warsaw) like it was German ghetto from second world war.

Marek, read my post once more, please.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Marek Szpitun:

warren whitmore:

Marek Szpitun:
Maybe Steve and Warren will write their opinion.

London - racist?!?

I'd say it's one of the most tolerant major cities in the world.

I'd never say that. Maybe next time I'll write some opposite examples showing tolerance, friendly attitude, etc ... of Londoners.

I would.

Have you experienced other major, multiracial cities?

I don't think that being there even for two weeks is sufficient for you to know what the city is really like.

And London is not one single, homogeneous entity. There are many Londons, each with a character of its own.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Patrycja P.:

Marek Szpitun:
Patrycja, please tell me where did you last see this kind of behaviour?

As I know wearing any emblems, signs related to SS, nazi and all this thing in public is forbidden by the law.

Brilliant, yes, it is forbidden and I wrote that too, but is the law respected? Haven't you ever met guys with "88" or white crosses on T-shirts sitting in a pub? If not, lucky you, I had this "pleasure" last year, and mind you, it wasn't "osiedlowa knajpa".

I don't know maybe I was lucky or maybe I was in a wrong place. But really except some football hools I have not seen such thing for a long time (I mean at least 2 years). Or maybe they were passing be by but I didn't pay attention to them.

please don’t describe Poland (Warsaw) like it was German ghetto from second world war.

Marek, read my post once more, please.

It wasn't about Your post, Patrycja. I wrote this after watching this TV program that was in the previous threat. Sorry I'll try to be more precise next time.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Marek Szpitun:

As I know wearing any emblems, signs related to SS, nazi and all this thing in public is forbidden by the law.

Brilliant, yes, it is forbidden and I wrote that too, but is the law respected? Haven't you ever met guys with "88" or white crosses on T-shirts sitting in a pub? If not, lucky you, I had this "pleasure" last year, and mind you, it wasn't "osiedlowa knajpa".

I don't know maybe I was lucky or maybe I was in a wrong place. But really except some football hools I have not seen such thing for a long time (I mean at least 2 years). Or maybe they were passing be by but I didn't pay attention to them.

I used to notice this kind of thing a lot, but less so recently.

Whether there is less of it about, or whether I've simply grown accustomed to it, I'm not sure.

I'll take a good look around me over the weekend.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

warren whitmore:

Marek Szpitun:

As I know wearing any emblems, signs related to SS, nazi and all this thing in public is forbidden by the law.

Brilliant, yes, it is forbidden and I wrote that too, but is the law respected? Haven't you ever met guys with "88" or white crosses on T-shirts sitting in a pub? If not, lucky you, I had this "pleasure" last year, and mind you, it wasn't "osiedlowa knajpa".

I don't know maybe I was lucky or maybe I was in a wrong place. But really except some football hools I have not seen such thing for a long time (I mean at least 2 years). Or maybe they were passing be by but I didn't pay attention to them.

I used to notice this kind of thing a lot, but less so recently.

Whether there is less of it about, or whether I've simply grown accustomed to it, I'm not sure.

I'll take a good look around me over the weekend.

I promise I'll do the same.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Patrycja P.:
Rafał, Marek, please don't change the subject - turning our attention to problems in London or the USA does not make the Polish racism/hooliganism issue disappear, and this is, as I believe, the topic Steve wants to discuss.

Oh Patty, don’t get all your feathers all ruffled, it is Friday you know. Of course this is a topic regarding the Polish side of racism; unfortunately I can’t give any examples of that. I think what we’ve done is gone a bit deeper and tried getting to the bottom of the actual cause in general.

And it is a serious problem in Poland.
Please, don't say that there's racism and neo-nazis everywhere in
the world

Well, there is! I can tell you, that from my own personal experience that while living in Poland as a kid, I was well aware of the fact that there were various groups like skinheads, punks, hooligans and others.. but the only time I’ve come across those groups was either during “Dzien Wagarowicza” in the Warsaw’s town square where they would have it out with each other and the police or whenever there was a “friendly” between Legia and some other team. Other than that I’d just read about it in the papers. You’d see them, but they were not as predominant and in your face as they are in some places here in the states.

- Poland is the country, where you can see them wearing
clothes with the SS or swastika emblems, they openly express their
views, gather in public places,

You can witness that here as well, although not in big cities, simply because … well they’d get demolished, but as soon as you go outside of the metro area you have a pretty good chance of running into someone with an iron cross patch or boots with white laces, suspenders and flier jackets dropping the “N” bomb every chance they get.
Here they own land, big pieces of land where they train and pretty much treat it like a paramilitary institution, they preach hate and they rally. They have massive financial backing and are in the top three most influential gangs, practically running prisons.
I somehow can’t see a Nazi rally getting police protection in Poland. I somehow doubt that you’d see something like this in the middle of Warsaw
[obrazek] – NYC

[obrazek]

[obrazek]

[obrazek] – NYC


http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/22/klan.03/story.kkk.jpg" alt="Obrazek" class="autolinked" />
&imgrefurl=http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/22/klan.03/&h=168&w=220&sz=...

Now I am not saying that this is an every day thing… especially in NYC, but nevertheless these people are protected by law and the US constitution. They have political ties as well.

This is what I was talking about. Do you see this in Poland? I am well aware of the xenophobia and the fact that it’s presence in Poland, but I really can’t tell you anything first hand about that.
Nazi paraphernalia are easily accessible here from a huge number of online stores and given the international situation.. the business is doing real well. Of course it’s simply used laundering business to cover up all the dirty money. So it is a huge problem.
Again, I am not trying to downplay the Polish problem but more often than not countries like Poland are accused of serious racism and xenophobia by other more “civilized and developed” nations that are themselves breeding grounds for hate groups of all kinds. I couldn’t even tell you right now how many different factions of neo Nazis, white supremacists, fascists and others are present today in western countries, probably more than we can fit in a single post.

>, can you see swastikas as the "masterpieces" of

graffiti "artists"? And you know what? We are so
used to seeing

But of course, Jewish cemeteries are desecrated with them, Jewish, Muslim and other minority schools etc etc… it happens. The difference is that here it’s considered a hate crime and its punishable pretty harshly. Yet the act of spewing this hate publicly, as long as no property is damaged is protected by law.
[obrazek]

them everywhere in Poland that we don't
even notice them, but believe me, for a foreigner it is
shocking, so is it a surprise when the first thought that appears
is: "Poland must be a racist country"?.

Is it? This is what I’ve been trying to drag out of people ever since I’ve joined GL. Nobody (up until this thread) was willing to openly comment on this issue. Again, I can only tell you about the problems on this side of sewage, but I am really, very much interested in finding out about how visible is this cancer in Poland.

Besides, there's definitely something wrong with
Polish mentality - the country which suffered so much under the
nazi occupation is the only country in the world where nazi ideology > still flourishes

It’s not Patty, it really isn’t… and from what I can tell you it’s nowhere near as organized and well backed by not only the private sector but also by state and the constitutional rights of citizens.

and its emblems are publicly worn/painted/worshipped - isn't it a paradox? Or maybe just sheer stupidity of the nazi followers? It's obvious they are dumb (which doesn't mean they are not dangerous) but is it an excuse for the rest of the society to keep the mouth shut? Does the rest of the society neglect the problem because it's good when gangs fight gangs, thinking, this is the way of cutting down the number of them? And what if innocent people suffer?

They are not dumb, that would be underestimating them. There are a lot of highly educated people with their own agendas that run this show. Calling them stupid is like saying that drug dealers on the streets are responsible for supplies of drugs flown into the country.

What needs to be done is what happened in Montreal in the late 80’s and early 90’s when biker wars got out of control. The entire city stood up after a kid young pre-teen kid was caught in a car bomb blast during a biker hit. People marched straight to the mayor and demanded action! With in weeks a special task force was created and pretty much decimated Hells Angels and other rival gangs. Did it solve the problem of biker gangs? Not really, but they are now in hiding and would never, ever think about going public like they’ve done in the past. There is a tremendous power in numbers and as long as there is a will, there will be a way. It’s up to people to stand up and protest and make things happen. You can not possibly think that politicians will ever do anything to change things unless pressured by the public. That is yet to happen in thousands of years of this so called democracy. There is a great quote from Thomas Jefferson the founding father of America – “A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.”

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Steve Jones:
just one little observation from today. I interviewed a Nigerian guy for a job. I asked him how he's been finding Poland so far. He told me that he's been here a year and has learned to be afraid of going out. Apparently, he's often verbally abused and occasionally physically attacked. He refuses to use public transport at night. He has no friends. The only person he can really talk to is his wife. His story was similar to that of another Nigerian who I employed a couple of years ago. Great guy. He also was afraid to use public transport after dark. Even after living here for 18 years.

I think that's pretty sad.

That's beyond sad and embarrassing. Although I've met other people that live in Poland and don't really have that issue. This is what rally bugs me. There are always two sides to every story, but for some reason in Poland there is no median, I always hear extreme cases of either - "eh.. you know, sometimes... " or ones like the one above mentioned. As much as I’d like to say that the truth is somewhere in the middle… this middle seems insanely vast.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Rafał, especially for you: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Y332Qn8sZoQ&feature=related

there are many more

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

on a lighter note...

Is anyone else annoyed by the ubiquitous greengrocer's apostrophe in hooligan grafitti: hool's

I'm sick of seeing HOOL'S.

I want the hooligans to get it right. If they want to write my language then they should respect that language and get it right. I'm going to be quite Nazi about it.

I want to see: HOOLS

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Btw, English 'hooligans' never call themselves 'hools'.

Only on the continent of Europe.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Patrycja P.:
Rafał, especially for you: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Y332Qn8sZoQ&feature=related

there are many more

I didn't say that they do not exist, but it's just on a much different scale. See, there are still people around in the US who's grandparents were hung on trees by the KKK and the same KKK is now still allowed to march down 6th Ave with Police protection. Same KKK and aryan brotherhood is still allowed to purchase land under a false pretends of not-for-profit organizations and teach hate to thousands of kids nation wide. That's the main difference. It seems to me that in Poland, although it is illegal to display such blatant images of hate it is the government that is not doing anything to fix it. Where over here, the government protects it under the blanket of the US constitution. So you have this circle of hate mongers spewing messages that go directly against the constitution and the declaration of independence which clearly states that "all men are created equal" yet this very same document protects their rights to do so. What really bothers me about this issue when it comes to Poland, is what you've mentioned before, that the vast majority tends to ignore this fact and not stand up or speak out loudly against it. Especially given our historical background.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Patrycja...you are exaggerting a little bit. You're right - the problem exists. But considering all the Rafal's said and shown, and what we can get from news - here in Poland it is a far lesser issue than in US. And the movie you attached shows nothnig comparing to the fotos from US. There are skinheads manifesting, protecting by police - ok, but none of them holds any nazi sing or whatsoever (only nacionalist slogans). And why? Because in Poland it's forbidden. In US not at all - there it's their rigth to express openly their views and beliefs. And that's the differnce Rafal is talking about.

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Polish football "nazis" are just local patriots (i.e. showing their allegiance to the club & the city), not racists or Jew-haters. Sure, we do have real Nazis, but that's not the football crowd.