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Temat: Elton John wants to adopt...

Paweł Gąsior:
It's so natural as a pair of gay-dogs rising their adopted pup

I don't know about dogs, but seagulls, penguins and other species I can't remember now raise the young in same sex couples. Where does the young come from? Sth. like in-vitro method, only simpler. :-)

So. It's not like an earthquake, it's not like with dogs. Other analogies, Paweł? :-) Sth. happenning in nature but unnatural... I know you will come up with sth. :-) SMB sex or necrophilia, I guess...

(no offence for the ironic tone, pls, it's my in born feature)

You may discuss morality ("It's immoral to be and act gay"), religion ("It's wrong to act gay, you'll go to hell"), personal attitudes ("Elton John makes me sick") etc. here, and have your own views on that, but not nature.

...........................................

More about nature, if interested:
"Among birds, for instance, studies show that 10 to 15 percent of female western gulls in some populations in the wild are homosexual. Among mammals, male and female bottlenose dolphins frequently engage in homosexual activity, both in captivity and in the wild. Homosexuality is particularly common among young male dolphin calves. One male may protect another that is resting or healing from wounds inflicted by a predator. When one partner dies, the other may search for a new male mate.

Male and female rhesus macaques, a type of monkey, also exhibit homosexuality in captivity and in the wild. Males are affectionate to each other, touching, holding and embracing. Females smack their lips at each other and play games like hide-and-seek, peekaboo and follow the leader. And both sexes mount members of their own sex.

Some scientists say homosexual behavior in animals is not necessarily about sex. Marlene Zuk, a professor of biology at UC Riverside and author of "Sexual Selections: What We Can and Can't Learn About Sex From Animals" (University of California Press, 2002), notes that scientists have speculated that homosexuality may have an evolutionary purpose, ensuring the survival of the species. By not producing their own offspring, homosexuals may help support or nurture their relatives' young. "That is a contribution to the gene pool," she said.

Janet Mann, a professor of biology and psychology at Georgetown University who has studied same-sex behavior in dolphin calves, says their homosexuality "is about bond formation, not about being sexual for life."

She said studies show that adult male dolphins form long-term alliances, sometimes in large groups. As adults, they cooperate to entice a single female and keep other males from her. Sometimes they share the female, or they may cooperate to help one male.

"Male-male cooperation is extremely important," Mann said. The homosexual behavior of the young calves "could be practicing" for that later, crucial adult period, she added.

What the animal studies do show, Zuk observed, is that "sexuality is a lot broader term than people want to think."

"You have this idea that the animal kingdom is strict, old-fashioned Roman Catholic," she said, "that they have sex just to procreate."Kamila G. edytował(a) ten post dnia 18.09.09 o godzinie 12:07

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Temat: Elton John wants to adopt...

Sylwia S.:
;]

I mean here that if you were brought up somewhere and suddenly you found out you didn't fit as a gay, then you can move somewhere else, where life is 'easier' and there is no illegality towards your needs.
if you're not catholic enough, then you should look for more atheist society;]

Oh, now I see:-). Sure, you're right.
You may fight, support those who fight, ignore and do what you feel you're entitled to anyway (a way of fighting, too, perhaps), or move away. So you don't have to fight, it's true. It's a matter of choice and motivation.

Who has the responsibility to fight for human rights, those who have them, those who don't but want them, or both?

There's just sth. I feel uncomfortable with in Bernd's line "If you suffer you have to fight, just like women fought for their rights". It sounds like "You don't fight, don't complain, agree it's only us men voting. We don't care, everyone takes care for themselves... etc. stuff."

Hence my Q to Bernd.

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Temat: Elton John wants to adopt...

Kamila G.:
Oh, now I see:-). Sure, you're right.
You may fight, support those who fight, ignore and do what you feel you're entitled to anyway (a way of fighting, too, perhaps), or move away. So you don't have to fight, it's true. It's a matter of choice and motivation.

Who has the responsibility to fight for human rights, those who have them, those who don't but want them, or both?

both. i am not too keen to fight to be perfectly honest, but can do it in a very different way. i.e. by showing people that raising child by same-sex couple can be a very normal thing and that we can be a very oridinary family. this perhaps can change their minds.


There's just sth. I feel uncomfortable with in Bernd's line "If you suffer you have to fight, just like women fought for their rights". It sounds like "You don't fight, don't complain, agree it's only us men voting. We don't care, everyone takes care for themselves... etc. stuff."


agree!

Temat: Elton John wants to adopt...

Why not let him adopt the whole orphange? :)

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Temat: Elton John wants to adopt...

Michal B.:
Why not let him adopt the whole orphange? :)

who said 'no'?
Ilter K.

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: Elton John wants to adopt...

Kamila G.:
I am sooooo damn exhausted by such discussions.
Hey, you know what, you don't have to join the discussion then... :)

Sorry for being direct. :)

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Temat: Elton John wants to adopt...

ilter K.:
Kamila G.:
I am sooooo damn exhausted by such discussions.
Hey, you know what, you don't have to join the discussion then... :)

Sorry for being direct. :)

Ilter, I know that. I stated why I was joining.

Temat: Elton John wants to adopt...

Sylwia S.:
Michal B.:
Why not let him adopt the whole orphange? :)

who said 'no'?

Did I say that anybody said 'no'?

Temat: Elton John wants to adopt...

[author]Sylwia S.
both. i am not too keen to fight to be perfectly honest, but can do it in a very different way. i.e. by showing people that raising child by same-sex couple can be a very normal thing and that we can be a very oridinary family. this perhaps can change their minds.

Just for clarity:
From what I know, same-sex couples cannot have children so you probably meant raising other people's children. (Not that I am against it.)
A 'family' also has its definition and it cannot be used as a cloak for other things. A spade should be called a spade, otherwise one gets a very blurred picture of the whole reality.
Same -sex partnership sounds better to me than a family.

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Temat: Elton John wants to adopt...

Michal B.:
[author]Sylwia S.
both. i am not too keen to fight to be perfectly honest, but can do it in a very different way. i.e. by showing people that raising child by same-sex couple can be a very normal thing and that we can be a very oridinary family. this perhaps can change their minds.

Just for clarity:
From what I know, same-sex couples cannot have children so you probably meant raising other people's children. (Not that I am against it.)


I can either adopt or get pregnant, so there will be mum and co-mum.

A 'family' also has its definition and it cannot be used as a cloak for other things. A spade should be called a spade, otherwise one gets a very blurred picture of the whole reality.
Same -sex partnership sounds better to me than a family.

whatever. so what really makes a family?
Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Elton John wants to adopt...

Kamila G.:

@Bernd: Do you really think fighting for a certain group's human rights is the responsibility of that group only?

Yes. Unless we all agree on a general, everlasting and accepted codex of human rights.

It's the obligation of a group or an individual. If you choose to join their fight... good. But maybe they don't want you to? What then? (As example: Let's say you want to join the cause of Vegetarians, but you are a meat eater yourself. They might feel uncomfortable with that.)
Ilter K.

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: Elton John wants to adopt...

Michal B.:
Just for clarity:
From what I know, same-sex couples cannot have children so you probably meant raising other people's children. (Not that I am against it.)
Just for your imagination and brain-exercising:
This might be possible in the not-so-far future.
A 'family' also has its definition and it cannot be used as a cloak for other things.
Which definiton are you talking about? The one in the bible, or the one we live in?

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Temat: Elton John wants to adopt...

Bernd Schreckenberg:
Kamila G.:

@Bernd: Do you really think fighting for a certain group's human rights is the responsibility of that group only?

Yes. Unless we all agree on a general, everlasting and accepted codex of human rights.

It's the obligation of a group or an individual. If you choose to join their fight... good. But maybe they don't want you to? What then? (As example: Let's say you want to join the cause of Vegetarians, but you are a meat eater yourself. They might feel uncomfortable with that.)

Why not making sure in unclear cases?
But usually such groups are clear as to wheter they want (or need, or can't do without) others' support or not.
Usually they do need different kinds of support, more or less active, doesn't matter. They usually want equality, not cutting the rest of the society's heads, mind you. Like love parades and Proposition 8th Protests are not just for gay people, and there's LGBTQ&F acronym, F standing for "friends".
Kasia M.

Kasia M. "Świat jest taki,
jaki myślisz, że
jest"

Temat: Elton John wants to adopt...

Sylwia S.:
whatever. so what really makes a family?

you know, Sylwia, a male dad, a female mum, and at least one child. and doesn't really matter if the dad is drinking every day and the child is thrown by the mum on the pavement just because it's crying. this is the family!Katarzyna M. edytował(a) ten post dnia 18.09.09 o godzinie 14:33
Kasia M.

Kasia M. "Świat jest taki,
jaki myślisz, że
jest"

Temat: Elton John wants to adopt...

Sylwia S.:
whatever. so what really makes a family?

or another example: a male dad, a female mum and some children but the parents aren't married. dad lives with them but they inform agencies that the dad lives separately and the mum is single... - you know just to be able to claim same more benefits...
Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Elton John wants to adopt...

Kamila G.:

Why not making sure in unclear cases?
But usually such groups are clear as to wheter they want (or need, or can't do without) others' support or not.
Usually they do need different kinds of support, more or less active, doesn't matter. They usually want equality, not cutting the rest of the society's heads, mind you. Like love parades and Proposition 8th Protests are not just for gay people, and there's LGBTQ&F acronym, F standing for "friends".

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.
Where is equality with a Pro-Pedophilia- or a Pro-Zoophilia-party, like in the Netherlands? They don't want to harm society, they just want their right to devote themselves to what they want to do (at least that's what they say).

Temat: Elton John wants to adopt...

ilter K.:
Michal B.:
Just for clarity:
From what I know, same-sex couples cannot have children so you probably meant raising other people's children. (Not that I am against it.)
Just for your imagination and brain-exercising:
This might be possible in the not-so-far future.

Wouldn't be that optimistic at all. Maybe in some future, but I hope that won't happen when I am still here.
BTW, could you leave the analysis of my brain to doctors please? That wasn't very friendly of you. :(
A 'family' also has its definition and it cannot be used as a cloak for other things.
Which definiton are you talking about? The one in the bible, or the one we live in?
And what's the definition in the Bible? And what's the one we live in? :)
Ilter K.

Ilter K. Business Developer,
Music Producer, AVID
Certified Instru...

Temat: Elton John wants to adopt...

Michal B.:
BTW, could you leave the analysis of my brain to doctors please? That wasn't very friendly of you. :(
Haha, you're funny (!)
A 'family' also has its definition and it cannot be used as a cloak for other things.
Which definiton are you talking about? The one in the bible, or the one we live in?
And what's the definition in the Bible? And what's the one we live in? :)
I asked about the definition. I wanted to understand what is the definition of family, that you are talking about.
Sylwia Łubkowska

Sylwia Łubkowska Nauczyciel oraz
tłumacz j.
angielskiego

Temat: Elton John wants to adopt...

Paweł Gąsior:
Sylwia S.:

why is it so bad? since when love has been unnatural?Sylwia S. edytował(a) ten post dnia >17.09.09 godzinie 13:32

I'm not writing about love but about a homo-family which is unnatural. Why? Let me explain.

1. In nature the goal of sexuality is procreation, love is incidental feature of this phenomenon.
2. Straight relationship leads 2 procreation, rite?
3. Homo relationship doesn't lead 2 procreation so it's not consistent with the natural goal of sexuality.
4. Homo-family must be artificially created so cannot be natural.
Homo-relationship doesn't lead 2

A number of people have already raised that point, but I'll ask again: why are you so preoccupied with being 'natural'? Have you not noticed that the world itself has been going further away from being natural day by day? We have GM food, synthetic fibre, laser technology, etc, etc, which is anything but natural. We inject ourselves with contraceptives, correct our vision, insert metal plates in our bones and battery-operated heart pacemakers, all of which is not natural. Cutting out forests and building roads and cities is not natural, cars are not natural.

Temat: Elton John wants to adopt...

The simplest I know is: a mother + a father + children.
have never heard of a family consisting of a mother+ a mother + children or : a father + a father + children.

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