Temat: Can you picture yourself living in another country?

Violetta P.:

For Poles, working abroad, knowing foreign languages and so on, makes you cool and sophisticated.

How do you know, Warren? You are not a Pole working abroad and I doubt anbody could describe themselves this way.

I wasn't talking specifically about Poles working abroad as you can see by the positioning of the comma.

The world "cool" is at such a high level of generalisation that I never know what lexical meaning it has.

Nowadays, not only for Poles, knowing foreign languages is nothing exceptional. Poland may be specific only because Polish, unlike English at the basic level, is a difficult and unpopular language. We must speak at least one foreign language, preferably one of the EU languages, to communicate effectively with foreigners, but also to read professional literature, participate in conferences and exist in our professional evironment in general. I don`t think it`s a sophisticated approach.

I would say that for many Poles 'abroad' has some glamour which it doesn't hold for people in English speaking countries, which are very insular, and not greatly interested in cultures and languages other than their own. For many native speakers, 'abroad' is a place occupied by funny foreigners who speak English poorly.

Furthermore, I don't believe people learn languages for utilitarian reasons. I doubt whether you are writing English here, now, because it is useful for your job.

I don't think it is possible to learn a language to a very high level if you only wish to know it for purely practical purposes.

For most Brits, the same thing just makes you a bit eccentric.

Does it? What`s eccentric about a Brit speaking French or German?

Not many people do though, do they. Every year the competence of British people at speaking foreign languages decreases. Nowadays, if an average person can speak a foreign language, they are suspiciously 'clever' and 'showing off'. It simply isn't something that an ordinary person manages to achieve any longer.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.08.09 o godzinie 12:13

Temat: Can you picture yourself living in another country?

I would say that for many Poles 'abroad' has some glamour which it doesn't hold for people in English speaking countries, which are very insular, and not greatly interested in cultures and languages other than their own. For many native speakers, 'abroad' is a place occupied by foreigners who speak English 'funny'.

Warren, don't you think that this could apply to some Britons as well? The word 'abroad' seems to have a similar meaning to a group of English people (including a few of my acquaintances) who have recently moved to Singapore / HK etc.

Temat: Can you picture yourself living in another country?

Ola Willers:

Warren, don't you think that this could apply to some Britons as well? The word 'abroad' seems to have a similar meaning to a group of English people (including a few of my acquaintances) who have recently moved to Singapore / HK etc.

These may be exotic and interesting places to live.

You won't find many learning the local languages, however.

Temat: Can you picture yourself living in another country?

I've noticed a few things after I came back to Poland...
I could only talk about my experience to my closest friends and family because
- some people were expecting amazing stories from me like I would have experienced a trip to the Moon.
- some people pretended that I haven't even been abroad because they thought I would brag about it.

Temat: Can you picture yourself living in another country?

warren whitmore:
For Poles, working abroad, knowing foreign languages and so on, makes you cool and sophisticated.

I cannot agree, at least it's not how it worked for me. I did not move to the Netherlands to be 'cool' or more sophisticated. And I am sure my friends (and family members) don't treat me like that.
I am not also learning another foreign langage because of that. I do it, because without knowing dutch I cannot move on with my work here. So I will not be more cool when I know dutch.

I agree with Violetta, knowing english is nothing special, we simply need to know it, because it's an international language in which you (in theory) are able to communicate in every place on earth.

But imagine, Warren, that not english is that kind of language, but, lets say: russian or french. Would it be cool then to know them? No, it would be just almost basic knowlege which you would need to be able to communicate with other nationalities...

Temat: Can you picture yourself living in another country?

Agnieszka S.:

warren whitmore:
For Poles, working abroad, knowing foreign languages and so on, makes you cool and sophisticated.

I cannot agree, at least it's not how it worked for me.

Of course, I'm generalising here, and being 'controversial'

I did not move to the Netherlands to be 'cool' or more sophisticated. And >I am sure my friends (and family members) don't treat me like that.

If they have also lived abroad and know languages, then you are 'nothing special'.

However, you may know people stuck in a boring, poorly paid job, without the opportunities to travel, who are a little jealous.

I am not also learning another foreign langage because of that. I do it, because without knowing dutch I cannot move on with my work here. So I will not be more cool when I know dutch.

I don't think anyone learns Dutch to be 'cool' - it isn't a 'cool' language to learn. I believe even the Dutch thenselves think this.

I agree with Violetta, knowing english is nothing special, we simply need to know it, because it's an international language in which you (in theory) are able to communicate in every place on earth.

But it is, in a way, cool. That's why you're here, and not on a Dutch language group.

People don't just learn English for business and communication reasons, but also for cultural ones, to understand films, music and so on.

But imagine, Warren, that not english is that kind of language, but, lets say: russian or french. Would it be cool then to know them? No, it would be just almost basic knowlege which you would need to be able to communicate with other nationalities...

At one time it was cool to know French, even in England. If you could watch French films in the original, and read French novels, then you were an intellectual.

This time has now passed.

Temat: Can you picture yourself living in another country?

These may be exotic and interesting places to live.

You won't find many learning the local languages, however.

Because they don't really have to, do they? They can easily fit into the work / social environment without knowing the local language and still see themselves as cool as ever.

But there is some truth about Poles seeing the ability to speak a foreign language as an attribute of coolness and a reason to prove they are better than others. I have noticed something at the airports, on my way to (and from) Poland: there are always a few Polish people amongst the crowd of passengers that feel the need to call someone and share their opinions over the phone, in English, and looking if everyone can hear them. You can actually tell that the conversations sound slightly weird and are far from the casual chats a one has with their pals. What is the reason for that?....

Temat: Can you picture yourself living in another country?

Ola Willers:
But there is some truth about Poles seeing the ability to speak a foreign language as an attribute of coolness and a reason to prove they are better than others.

I think this is fairly obvious.

My wife once got a hate letter from someone for 'thinking she was better than other people' as she knows English fluently.

There is another group where one of the members is forever boasting in an unpleasant manner about how superior Polish people are compared to native Brits because they can speak other languages.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.08.09 o godzinie 13:53

Temat: Can you picture yourself living in another country?

warren whitmore:

I wasn't talking specifically about Poles working abroad

Ah, yes, sorry.

I would say that for many Poles 'abroad' has some glamour

That`s true, unfortunately. For many Poles a German/British/American shit smells lovely while a Polish one stinks. For me, a shit is a shit. I`m not "cool".

very insular, and not greatly interested in cultures and languages other than their own. For many native speakers, 'abroad' is a place occupied by funny foreigners who speak English poorly.

Britain, or any other country, cannot be a point of reference for other cultures to be "funny" or not. If you consider foreigners "funny" that means that you are too ignorant about their culture. If they are "funny" because they speak English poorly, then try to communicate with them in their native language. Oh, I forgot - people in English speaking countries don`t learn foreign languages. Too bad!

Furthermore, I don't believe people learn languages for utilitarian reasons.

I don`t think anybody learns a language for one reason. But I`ve never heard the reason "because I want to be cool".

In Poland, learning two foreign languages is obligatory nearly throughout your entire educational life. English is only an option. More and more learners choose German and Russian, because they find them useful due to our neighouring countries. Those in language classes have to learn a third language - Latin. The language itself is not cool.

>I doubt whether you are writing English here,

now, because it is useful for your job.

No, I`m writing here because I want to communicate with you more or less effectively and your post was in English, not in Polish. If you prefer Polish, it`s ok with me. You will be "sophisticated" and I will use my native language and it will be cool (for me).

I don't think it is possible to learn a language to a very high level if you only wish to know it for purely practical purposes.

For practical purposes it`s enough to communicate so the level doesn`t have to be very high. The aim of many people is not to interact with foreigners but, surprisingly, to gain the tool to cope with the life/work in another environment, in Poland or abroad.

For most Brits, the same thing just makes you a bit eccentric.

Does it? What`s eccentric about a Brit speaking French or German?

if an average person can speak a foreign language, they are suspiciously 'clever' and 'showing off'.

Is it something that you experienced because you speak Polish?

It simply isn't something

that an ordinary person manages to achieve any longer.

Then you are exceptional!Violetta P. edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.08.09 o godzinie 14:18

Temat: Can you picture yourself living in another country?

Ola Willers:

These may be exotic and interesting places to live.

You won't find many learning the local languages, however.

Because they don't really have to, do they? They can easily fit into the work / social environment without knowing the local language and still see themselves as cool as ever.

My husband doesn't know Polish well enough to communicate and I don't think it's that easy for him to fit in. I know he struggles and is trying hard because although many people in Poland speak English nobody really seems to be interested in using it unless they absolutely have to. Many people that he's met and who know English did not say a word to him in English but used me as a translator. And many people don't want to make an effort to try to understand when he is speaking Polish. So I think it's not easy when you don't know a local language.
Another example... Italy.
I went to Florence for 2 weeks to study and teach. And with my very limited Italian I couldn't easily communicate. I had to use English, but Italians didn't have very good English so it was like a circle. Yes, I could buy or ask for things but I only got to scratch the surface. If we don't know the local language we will not fit in even if our English is excellent. Because language and culture are inseparable.

Temat: Can you picture yourself living in another country?

Agreed on Poland, Aneta. I can only imagine how tough it can get now(although four years ago, I went through this with my husband who speaks very basic Polish).

In my post, I was referring to some English people who have recently moved to Asia (see my earlier post).

Good luck with the job-hunting!Ola Willers edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.08.09 o godzinie 14:34

Temat: Can you picture yourself living in another country?

Violetta P.:

very insular, and not greatly interested in cultures and languages other than their own. For many native speakers, 'abroad' is a place occupied by funny foreigners who speak English poorly.

Britain, or any other country, cannot be a point of reference for other cultures to be "funny" or not. If you consider foreigners "funny" that means that you are too ignorant about their culture. If they are "funny" because they speak English poorly, then try to communicate with them in their native language. Oh, I forgot - people in English speaking countries don`t learn foreign languages. Too bad!

I'm just saying that is the mind set of some native speakers of English.

I'm not saying that I necessarily approve of this mind set.

Temat: Can you picture yourself living in another country?

Aneta Frank:

Ola Willers:

My husband doesn't know Polish well enough to communicate and I don't think it's that easy for him to fit in. I know he struggles and is trying hard because although many people in Poland speak English nobody really seems to be interested in using it unless they absolutely have to. Many people that he's met and who know English did not say a word to him in English but used me as a translator. And many people don't want to make an effort to try to understand when he is speaking Polish. So I think it's not easy when you don't know a local language.

I personally find it very hard to get others to speak to me in Polish.

The last time I had an extended conversation with someone in Polish, was with someone who lived in London and was an English graduate.

I believe some people are embarrassed to speak Polish to an Englishman, as this implies they can't speak English well.

Temat: Can you picture yourself living in another country?

The French have a different attitude to the English language.

For them it is cool not to speak English, even if capable of doing so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRiCMc8eLqs

Temat: Can you picture yourself living in another country?

Violetta P.:

In Poland, learning two foreign languages is obligatory nearly throughout your entire educational life. English is only an option. More and more learners choose German and Russian, because they find them useful due to our neighouring countries. Those in language classes have to learn a third language - Latin. The language itself is not cool.

I would disagree.

Szczecin is right on the border with Germany, and most students learn English and German.

Over 90% prefer English.

Presumably because English is the language of movies, music and so on, and is therefore 'cool'.

Temat: Can you picture yourself living in another country?

Violetta P.:

The aim of many people is not to interact with foreigners but, surprisingly, to gain the tool to cope with the life/work in another environment, in Poland or abroad.

I don't think you are going to get very far in a foreign languge if that is your aim.

You have to like the language to a certain extent to take the time and trouble to master it.

Temat: Can you picture yourself living in another country?

Violetta P.:

if an average person can speak a foreign language, they are suspiciously 'clever' and 'showing off'.

Is it something that you experienced because you speak Polish?

My Polish is crap.

Though I pretend otherwise in order not to look stupid.

I only know it for purely utilitarian purposes, e.g. to buy something from a shop.

Temat: Can you picture yourself living in another country?

warren whitmore:

My Polish is crap.

Though I pretend otherwise in order not to look stupid.

I only know it for purely utilitarian purposes, e.g. to buy something from a shop.

"I don't believe people learn languages for utilitarian reasons." [W.W.]
You`ve made my day! Thank you:)

Do you think it`s easier for a Brit to live in Poland than for a Pole to live in an English-speaking country?

Temat: Can you picture yourself living in another country?

Warren: People in Poland do learn foreign languages for job related reasons, believe me.

Temat: Can you picture yourself living in another country?

warren whitmore:

Agnieszka S.:
I did not move to the Netherlands to be 'cool' or more sophisticated. And >I am sure my friends (and family members) don't treat me like that.

If they have also lived abroad and know languages, then you are 'nothing special'.

They never did, some of my friends know english only enough to play games and unerstand movies a bit... My family speaks no english at all.

However, you may know people stuck in a boring, poorly paid job, without the opportunities to travel, who are a little jealous.

True, but fortunately they are not my friends. They are jealous, because I was not afraid to go abroad to try a different life, and they are too scared to do that.

I don't think anyone learns Dutch to be 'cool' - it isn't a 'cool' language to learn. I believe even the Dutch thenselves think this.

Agreed on that :) they think their language is difficult and grammar stupid, because rules are changing every few years...

But it is, in a way, cool. That's why you're here, and not on a Dutch language group.

That means that our definitions of the word cool are a bit different... For me cool is something that you can show off with among your friends, and I don't think ability to speak english is something like that.

People don't just learn English for business and communication reasons, but also for cultural ones, to understand films, music and so on.

Agreed.

At one time it was cool to know French, even in England. If you could watch French films in the original, and read French novels, then you were an intellectual.

But not because french is a language known by almost everybody in the world, it was just some short-timed trend, fashion that some people followed.

This time has now passed.

Good :)