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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Jacek K.:

230.000 killed out of which 100.000 were Jewish.
This at least used to be official estimates.
http://www.majdanek.pl/images/media/Zeszyty_Majdanka_T...[edited]Jacek

Using exactly the same source Wikipedia says "The 2005 research by the Head of Scientific Department at Majdanek Museum, historian Tomasz Kranz indicates that there were 78,000 victims, 59,000 of whom were Jews."
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Dave Andrew:
Jacek K.:

230.000 killed out of which 100.000 were Jewish.
This at least used to be official estimates.

And a couple of years earlier it was 350 000. When Soviets entered Majdanek, their prosecutors counted huge warehouses of shoes ... Tomasz Kranz indicates what can be proven, according to available documentation. He does not claim his numbers are final.Jacek K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.09.10 o godzinie 14:08
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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Auschwitz dance

Paulina W.:

Ok, I've had something different on my mind, I was more concentrated on commemoration.

Commemoration of things like Auschwitz is like scratching a wound and preventing it from closing.

We don't have to teach our kids Auschwitz or any other mass murder, but we have to teach them in a way, so that these things can't happen. After taking a look around it seems that we still haven't found the right way for it.

@Jacek: Thanks, you summed it up quite nicely. I should outsource my comments to you :))))))
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Bernd Schreckenberg:

We don't have to teach our kids Auschwitz or any other mass murder, but we have to teach them in a way, so that these things can't happen.

Bernd, I partially agree, we have to teach them about phenomena like Authority, Conformism, Cognitive Dissonanse, Control of hatred and violence, phenomena of empathy and alienation, prejudice - all the social phenomena that impede moral judgment, and make Auschwitz the case study.

Children are one thing, soldiers are another. It is worth teaching them what will happen once they will be fighting, in extreme conditions, experiencing losses.

Not the other way round...Jacek K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 17.09.10 o godzinie 08:53
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Jacek K.:
Last, but not least, there are other issues, of relation of Jewish people themselves to Holocaust amid accusations that remembrance of Holocaust is exploited for political and even military purposes.

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_Industry
2) Cases of bringing israeli youth, military officers etc. for indoctrination. I talked to one local guide in Majdanek and he saild, Israelis seldom if never use a Polish guide, always come with their own, whereas the local guide would have a very up to date information on research etc. No interest. They sit in circles on their own... Well, we are in a free country and they are welcome and friendly

By the way, Poles and Jews suffered in Majdanek together, and died fifty fifty... It is one that was not dynamited, then it was used by NKWD to keep Polish Home Army militants. It is intact but it is underfunded. Maybe Poles and Jews can sit down and do something together. Recently fire caused by faulty installation consumed one of the barracks with precious proofs and exhibits...Jacek K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.09.10 o godzinie 11:16


Probably I spoke with the same guide. But how can you know what Israeli guides say? I don't so I don't judge. But I also regret they don't want to get to know modern Poland.

But the numbers about Majdanek you give are false. This is what Poles have been taught for many years. Until 1989 the number of Polish loses in all camps was exagerrated. Polish Jews were just Polish citizens. In Majdanek they even didn't use the word Jews but "people" from Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia etc. Nowe we can count better. In the whole Operation Reinhard in the Lublin district aprox. 1,5 milion Jews were murdered. Jews who were murdered immediately after coming to the camps were not registered. Please keep in mind also the Erntefest Operation and don't change the proportions.
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Paulina W.:

Probably I spoke with the same guide. But how can you know what Israeli guides say? I don't so I don't judge. But I also regret they don't want to get to know modern Poland.

I guess they believe Polish guides are not reliable.

But the numbers about Majdanek you give are false.

Perhaps true, perhaps false. Soviets counted shoes and tended to overestimate victims counts, now scientists use precise queries and verify facts...
It does not make me happy that the numbers are lower, and that Jews died 3/4 to 1/4 Poles etc.

The point is we are now getting quite close in this discussion to proving that we are not far to Nazis. We do not see humans, every human being, every family, every entity. Jews were not homogenous. But Nazis observed them as such, as numbers, as victims, not as individual beautiful or ugly, good or bad, left wing or right wing, intending to reinstate Israel vs. believing in Poland as motherland.

Yes, I am probably false, about proportions and about numbers, and in my everyday life I do not distinguish Jews lets say from Arabs or from Poles.
I am for remembering every single victim of violent death in this world, but in such a way that it should make us better.
registered. Please keep in mind also the Erntefest Operation and don't change the proportions.

I keep in mind, if I were to quarrel I would say that Erntefest does not count because a single day mass murder distorts the average everyday statistics of common Jewish and Polish suffering, suffering of neighbours, if we use "Jedwabne" language. The suffering so horrible that you would rather die in Erntefest from a bullet and get it over with. You are only proving, that Holocaust is very instrumental, that all these people died in vain.

It has become MacHolocaust, thanks to Spielberg and Polański, thanks to our teachers, political leaders, and us all

It is Friday, I see Bernd's point more clearly... no drugs taken, I am addicted to sweets lately...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIL-uFB7cIcJacek K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 17.09.10 o godzinie 14:11
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

One bullet and it can go through so many bodies at one time...

"Riders of the lost arch" - Indiana shoots a pistol? Wow... six or seven dead at one time... ha ha.... he is astonished himself.

"Shindler's list" - wow, the same scene, Shindler and his wife ride a horse and are moved with the scene of a Nazi shooting with one carbine shot several Jews in a row.
===============
A couple of weeks I saw a ad inviting to a container where people could experience experimental movies in 5d, 3d + moving chairs, smells. What about adding a cologne water of a n "integrated" psyche of a Nazi officer. What about a "rotten" smell of weeks without washing, urine, desease smell, smell of hunger, of fear. How about pieces of brain land on your face in form of a jelly that in the end will be washed out. Jurrasic park I am watching now. On tv.
===============

My grandfater was AK in Czortkow (home town of my family, now in Ukraine) , he saw atrocities secretly from a room of Police compound. He was let in by a cleaning lady. NKVD officers brought in victims (who? who knows?, victims), with bags on their heads, put them on the asphalt and drove over them with a catterpilar tractor. Then there were cleaners with hooks to tear the bodies from the floor... The NKVD officers in the evening met in a bar, got drunk, but asked what burns and stinks the whole night answered soberly, we have lots of used tires we decided to burn them.

This was my grandfather,s personal experience. He talked about that only when drunk. And he shouted when he slept. I know only today what he have suffered when I read about recent developments in curing post-traumatic syndrom (PTSD) During communism he kept silent. When it started to collapse, someone introduced him to a West German journalist. His story was recorded and published in some magazine. He did not authorise the final version. When he learned what was written, he said, it was grossly distorted and dramatised.

Mr. Spielberg, I watched some of the realism of your movies about war, especially Normandy Landing, Band of Brothers. And I remember my grandfather. After Russia joined coalition he joined 2nd People's Army, he fought in Kolobrzeg pushing SS units to the sea (curious but many of them were not Germans, many representatives of United Europe fighting communism. He showed me street corners where his friend name this, and his friend name that died. His story made me remember and cry more because it was symbolic and it talked about individual suffering than because it was related to 1 man's suffering or 1 million man's suffering.
======================

When are we going to have first PTSD cases from watching movies? Soon. Realism sells well. Nightmares, flashbacks, the sense of disgust, lost faith, sensitivity to smells, watchfulness (most psychiatrists will mistake PTSD with depression, but it is tiredness caused by animal's readiness to escape, to hide, to attack... TICKETS PLEASE, HELP YOURSELF WITH POPCORN.
======================

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwcP3NOCeiE&feature=rel...Jacek K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 18.09.10 o godzinie 08:34
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Dave Andrew:

Using exactly the same source Wikipedia says "The 2005 research by the Head of Scientific Department at Majdanek Museum, historian Tomasz Kranz indicates that there were 78,000 victims, 59,000 of whom were Jews."

All Right. Dave. I will not quarrel about something I have no idea about.
I will not take part.

One time ago I tried to learn and know details, eg. of Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. And going deeper into the subject I learned that it is the utmost example of instrumentality.

Are you a specialist?

I know that two groups were involved, a Betar one "Jewish Military Organization" and one Socialist or even pro-Communist one. "

Which one was more prominent? Who was a leader of uprising as of present research? What was the true involvment of Polish AK in the fight (I know a different story, of AK units trying to blow up ghetto wall, of attacks on SS Police units outside ghetto, of assistance to escapers through canals.

After the war AK, the organization my Grandfather was a proud member, was portrayed as antisemitic, cooperating with Nazis, and the people of Warsaw as indifferent or even accomplices to suffering in the Ghetto. Irena Sendler (remember, she represented a large network of people), now famous, after the war was prosecuted (who now remembers, she never complained) and would well have been put in prison together with some Nazi SS Aufseherinen or even executed were it not for a wife of Communist Secret Service officer who saved her. Was she tortured, was she tormented psychologically by communists? Nobody asks the question why she was silent until discovered at the end of her days by a group of kids doing a theatre project on her, thinking first she died long ago. Was she like my grandfather? Hushed, suffering?

For me the war ended with the death and end of suffering of my grandfather. Quite recently.

Note Rogatyvka Polish uniforms in this pop image.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG3FIs8B91g&feature=rel...

Which camp was the cruelest? Maybe victims cry for remembrance for some, and for revenge for others? Anyone knows this name? Anyone cares why? Popkorn please?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw6A034Yfxo&feature=rel...

Tutsi vs. Hutu? Who? Whom? Who cares? Black men problem? Wild men from the jungle? Who remembers... Who can relate to anything? Popcorn please.

In the age of internet we have everything to educate ourselves. But most of net data commotion is pornography. Maybe holocaust particulars are becoming some sort of pornography. "Gore films category.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrcX3XUm7eA

Who is responsible? Why not you who read this? For fuel in your car from the Gulf and for rare metals in your cel phone and for bloody diamond wedding ring you are wearing on your seemingly innocent, delicate fingers. What wars did it finance? What attrocities? Does Erytrea mean anything? or Angola? Guns for concessions? Do you know the largest exporters of military hardware in the world? What income does it bring to state budgets? US, Russia, GB, France, Germany, Israel (there is no muslim country in the first 20). Who benefits? You?

Whom are we going to hate today? Muslims? Roma people (Gypsies)?

Any popcorn left?Jacek K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 18.09.10 o godzinie 08:27
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Auschwitz and Holocaust dance...

Varius directions a pop discussion ab. holocaust can take:
recently I could explore two, (1) fascination of victim with opressor,
(2) Catharsis of changing seats, victim becomes opressor,
if someone finds another niche, another interesting combination, Oskar is guaranteed or at least lots of discussion and publicity. And popcorn sold.
=================

Some fascination of victim with oppressor? With the mindset? Interesting but is it real or it is an interesting product of imagination. I was enchanted with this movie, a very good one but is it real?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Xw4Cok-TOQ&feature=rel...

Would you like to try retribution? (Ingenious Basterds) By the way would you call yourself a terrorist or insurgent or freedom fighter in light of present day Christian/Jewish vs. Muslim clash of cultures created in my opinion by neo-liberal west)

Enjoy shooting Schmeisser at a condensed group of hated enemy population. Maybe it is exactly the same feeling experienced by Erntefest Einsatz group.
Popcorn please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDv-n_aMVd8&feature=rel...Jacek K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 18.09.10 o godzinie 09:32
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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Auschwitz dance

Jacek K.:

Thanks Jacek. Your input here has been exhausting, and the stories of your grandfather curious.

My grandfather never wanted to talk about the war. We kids bugged him every time we came to visit. We didn't know any better.

I know from my mother, some pictures and observations that he was a simple private in the army. Was in France and Russia. Became a POW somewhere around the Stalingrad episode of WWII, ended up in Siberia loading stones and peeling potatoes, came back to Germany after one or two years, had bad dreams for years, woke up screaming at night, drunk heavily, worked as a construction worker, stopped drinking, eventually led the simple life of a small farmer. I never heard him swear or say anything bad. He was very active in the village, friendly and helping, beloved and respected by many. He died too early and is missed dearly.

My other grandfather was too young to be in the war. His father, my great-grandfather, was too old. He fought in WWI and got wounded during WWII. He was working on a roof when a bomb hit the house. His son wanted to go and shoot US tanks, the SA came to draft him but my great-grandfather told them off, his son had to stay.
My great-grandfather had a great impact on me when I was little. He passed away on my eighth birthday.

Involvement of other family members is unknown to me.
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Steve Jones

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Temat: Auschwitz dance

I'm gonna throw this one in, see if it sticks!

NAZI ROCK!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cqltt-YKwCcSteve Jones edytował(a) ten post dnia 19.09.10 o godzinie 17:28
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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Auschwitz dance

Steve Jones:

Romper Stomper

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXa-nAYdjrk

American History X

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXaZENPQrsw
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Bernd Schreckenberg:

Involvement of other family members is unknown to me.

... Bernd...

I will remember Wilhelm Gustlof.
more dreadful than Titanic.

Edit.

The topics worthy of a lesson in highschool are:

1. How to retain one's moral judgment despite adverse circumstances (conformism, authority, stress).
2. How and why it is necessary to be empathic towards other human beings.
3. How to control and contain one's aggression.
4. Ethics - of science, of business. What is a valid research, why it should be ethical, what is allowed in business, in school ...

Then Auschwitz discussion has a great value as an ultimate example of what happened to man. To Irma Grese, to Joseph Mengele etc. What was the mindset that made them Gods of Life and Death.

Auschwitz is also a good place of discussion about empathy, about seeing humans first and then about combating prejudice towards their religion, ethnicity, economic status, way of life.

Only by realization of the mechanism, only by bringing it to awareness of individuals, of pupils, can Auschwitz teach anything. For me it should be a place where pupils should learn about social psychology, about social engineering of totalitarian systems. And who knows, maybe they would relate this social engineering to the present conflicts and present media.

Look how fear and hatred towards Muslims is spreading throughout Europe. Muslims themselves feel threatened and I would not be astonished if they do not become belligerent. We have now ethnically polarized societies that are easy to control by populists. Look how parties that claim they see better and solve the problem of immigration gain support and media coverage.Jacek K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 20.09.10 o godzinie 20:47
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

In brief: we have technology parks, pupils can learn by touching, by experimenting, and they leave such places full of ideas.

Auschwitz, is definitely not a technloogy park. You go there, see the pictures of gruesome attrocity and leave such place with emotions. And not constructive ideas.

I think Auschwitz should be the place where pupils, and grown ups learn for instance about modern social psychology experiments: guards-prisoners, generator experiment (social psychology experiments showing mechanisms and phenomena causing maladaptive behavior of societies.

Auschwitz should be a good place for:
Policemen, to learn how to limit the use of their power to statutory duties and how and why to observe and enforce moral values,
History teachers and pupils, for training how to explain historical phenomena so that they can use history to teach how to perceive differences and diversity of peoples, how to combat aggression in oneself and others, how to solve disputes, how to lead a good, valuable life, how to participate in democratic institutions so that they do not degenerate (the phenomenon of escape from freedom)...etc

Auschwitz used for teaching would be better than just a monument for all these people, it should be the proof that they did not die in vain, that their suffering can teach us something valuable.Jacek K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 22.09.10 o godzinie 09:47
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