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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Paulina W.:
Bernd, it's clear that you feel uncomfortable with the camps subject. This is really not my point to make you feel worse and provoke you to these pseudo-rational explanations. I'm not going to write here all the "outstanding" ideas of the Nazis, this is not an auction. But the way you defend ... (and who exactly do you want to defend?) it's getting not only ridiculous but also very inappropriate. You don't need to repent, it's better to remain silent.

Paulina, Bernd and I are quite comfortable with the camps subject. The issue Bernd is touching upon, as I understand it, is the absurdity (including excessive and artificial/superficial exaltation) people are capable of in the topic of remembrance of atrocities. Either, absurdity that is close to profanation, or the kind of remembrance that satisfies the need for sensation and diversion. Finally, the remembrance that does not teach most of people anything, does not prevent new atricities, new genocides.

[EDIT]I visited Auschwitz first time I was fourteen. Also, my family suffered a lot from both Nazis and Soviets. My Grandfather witnessed Soviet executions in Czortkow. My grandma was in a Nazi camp near Krolewiec and remembered women shot for stealing potato peals. After that I read a couple of books, wanted to understand why and came across names like Eliott Aronson, Leon Festinger, Stanley Milgram. And I think I understood.

Auschwitz remembrance did not prevent Srebrenica from happening. It did not prevent genocide in Kongo, in my and your times. Who cares, that far, another continent?... But the politics of that region can be traced to involvement of post colonial European powers and Soviet Russia. Both could have been prevented if Europe, if America, if Russia if ONZ if anyone, public opinion of the world cared. If such horrors happen in our times, in Europe, a day drive from here, under the nose of United Nations UNPROFOR, there is no point remembering Auschwitz. People died in vain.
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masakra_w_Srebrenicy [/EDIT]Jacek K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 15.09.10 o godzinie 23:09
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Jacek K.:

Paulina, Bernd and I are quite comfortable with the camps subject.

It's better to speak only on your own behalf;)
The issue Bernd is touching upon, as I understand it, is the absurdity (including excessive and artificial/superficial exaltation) people are capable of in the topic of remembrance of atrocities. Either, absurdity that is close to profanation, or the kind of remembrance that satisfies the need for sensation and diversion. Finally, the remembrance that does not teach most of people anything, does not prevent new atricities, new genocides.Jacek K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 15.09.10 o godzinie 22:38

Of course I don't support any excessive and artificial/superficial exaltation. Yes we can discuss if for you this movie is a kind of that or leads to nothing. This was the original topic.
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Paulina W.:

Of course I don't support any excessive and artificial/superficial exaltation. Yes we can discuss if for you this movie is a kind of that or leads to nothing. This was the original topic.

Let's reverse the question, shall we? What does this dumb dance is supposed to lead to or prevent from happening?

I, looking at it, cringe and feel embarrassed that someone has come up with such an outlandish idea. It is neither fun, nor original.

I would even say that it is a sophisticated form of d..k waving that for me is personally offensive in the light of the fact that a few million others did not make it.Marcin B. edytował(a) ten post dnia 15.09.10 o godzinie 22:52
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

It's a good question if every remembrance must teach something. I'm not sure.
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Paulina W.:
It's a good question if every remembrance must teach something. I'm not sure.

And I reckon that unfortunately we both know the answer to this question.
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

If I were to answer, Auschwitz teaches me something.

Auschwitz -> Why ? -> Memoirs and accounts -> Reference to... -> Social Psychology (studies on conformism, cognitive dissonance, authority)

later on

Auschwitz -> How to believe in humanity after it took place, how to believe in man. How to stay sane when one understands with full empathy, what suffering took place there.-> Psychology, Psychiatry, Ethics (Antoni Kępiński http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoni_K%C4%99pi%C5%84ski)

Depends on who you are, Auschwitz can teach you a lot, or nothing, or destroy you. Some people like to read about atrocities of IInd World War and it excites them as if it were some kind of pornography, fascination with evil.

When Mr. Spielberg produces a movie about holocaust, he actually makes some people dream about putting Goeth's uniform on, feel like God of life and death. Just for a moment, for a costume party, or for so popular recently "apolitical reenactment units". It is curious how most of young Americans or Europeans of countries that suffered Nazi occupation prefer to put on Nazi uniforms and not Allied ones.

Let's take Irma Grese. Or Amon Goeth. Aren't they ... fascinating fallen angels of popular culture? Just look at them.

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Jacek K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 15.09.10 o godzinie 23:57
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Marcin B.:
Paulina W.:
It's a good question if every remembrance must teach something. I'm not sure.

And I reckon that unfortunately we both know the answer to this question.

Why unfortunately and why both?
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Jacek K.:
If I were to answer, Auschwitz teaches me something.

When is Mr. Spielberg going to produce another movie, he actually makes some people dream about putting these uniforms on, feel like Gods of life and death. Just for a moment, for a costume party, or for so popular recently "apolitical reenactment units". It is curious how most of them prefer to play Nazis than Allies.

Let's take Irma Grese. Or Amon Goeth. Aren't they ... fascinating fallen angels of popular culture? Just look at them.

I don't think it's popular culture, I assume that not many people know these names.

But indeed handsome men in such uniforms look great;)Paulina W. edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.09.10 o godzinie 00:00
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Paulina W.:
Marcin B.:
Paulina W.:
It's a good question if every remembrance must teach something. I'm not sure.

And I reckon that unfortunately we both know the answer to this question.

Why unfortunately and why both?

Why unfortunately? Well, several Auschwitzes have happened since the original one and I have no illusions they will stop happening because you or I remember them. You of course may think otherwise but I have my doubts about the human race as such.
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Marcin B.:

Why unfortunately? Well, several Auschwitzes have happened since the original one and I have no illusions they will stop happening because you or I remember them. You of course may think otherwise but I have my doubts about the human race as such.

Ok, I've had something different on my mind, I was more concentrated on commemoration.
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Paulina W.:

I don't think it's popular culture, I assume that not many people know these names.

Irma Grese?
Not popular culture?

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I would like to recommend to you this article...
http://www.wysokieobcasy.pl/wysokie-obcasy/1,53662,787...
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Jacek K.:


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Goeth wasn't as handsome as Fiennes, though ;)
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Marcin B.:

Goeth wasn't as handsome as Fiennes, though ;)

Was he not?
A little bit less handsome before his execution, real Amon Goth.

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Temat: Auschwitz dance

I am afraid, with time, our memory of Nazi and their atrocities will look like that.
It will be a Hollywood/MacDonnald's mass consumption memory.


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(Rest of pictures http://www.eutimes.net/2009/12/the-rebirth-of-nazism-i...Jacek K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.09.10 o godzinie 01:07
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Jacek K.:
Marcin B.:

Goeth wasn't as handsome as Fiennes, though ;)

Was he not?
A little bit less handsome before his execution, real Amon Goth.

A little bit handsome, yes ;) In that unique rodent-like way.
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Last, but not least, there are other issues, of relation of Jewish people themselves to Holocaust amid accusations that remembrance of Holocaust is exploited for political and even military purposes.

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_Industry
2) Cases of bringing israeli youth, military officers etc. for indoctrination. I talked to one local guide in Majdanek and he saild, Israelis seldom if never use a Polish guide, always come with their own, whereas the local guide would have a very up to date information on research etc. No interest. They sit in circles on their own... Well, we are in a free country and they are welcome and friendly

The question arises if it not done so that they come back and be more "patriotic" more "afraid of the outsiders, of Arabs who "want to push them to the sea" etc. Conditioned to be afraid, and then to hate and fight. I think it is also the case. An instrumental use of Holocaust for today's gains and for social engineering.

By the way, Poles and Jews suffered in Majdanek together, and died fifty fifty... It is one that was not dynamited, then it was used by NKWD to keep Polish Home Army militants. It is intact but it is underfunded. Maybe Poles and Jews can sit down and do something together. Recently fire caused by faulty installation consumed one of the barracks with precious proofs and exhibits...Jacek K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.09.10 o godzinie 11:16
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Marcin B.:
Jacek K.:
Marcin B.:

Goeth wasn't as handsome as Fiennes, though ;)

Was he not?
A little bit less handsome before his execution, real Amon Goth.

A little bit handsome, yes ;) In that unique rodent-like way.

First, I wanted to make a prank and put here one of Paul Newman's pictures, I am sure you would say something like that anyway.Jacek K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.09.10 o godzinie 11:13
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Jacek K.:
Was he not?
A little bit less handsome before his execution, real Amon Goth.

A little bit handsome, yes ;) In that unique rodent-like way.

First, I wanted to make a prank and put here one of Paul Newman's pictures, I am sure you would say something like that anyway.

Sure I would, but granted, Paul Newman's photo would a good one given the fact he was from Jewish background.
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Jacek K.:
By the way, Poles and Jews suffered in Majdanek together, and died fifty fifty...

Jacek. That's not true.
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Dave Andrew:
Jacek K.:
By the way, Poles and Jews suffered in Majdanek together, and died fifty fifty...

Jacek. That's not true.

Not true?

230.000 killed out of which 100.000 were Jewish.
This at least used to be official estimates.

In the past I read memoirs of one Polish inmate , he was made chief gardener thanks to his very good command of colloquial German (at the same time marked the most prone to escape) and in his team there were both Poles and Jews. Then, all the Jews were taken away and killed in one major action, many Poles, professors, engenieurs etc. died in a couple of months after internment from desease and hard labor. Ashes are a mix of both nations, or religions if you prefer.

Edit:
There is a detailed and recent research on the numbers. The tables contain the number on inmates Jews, Poles... Germans, Russians.

http://www.majdanek.pl/images/media/Zeszyty_Majdanka_T...Jacek K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.09.10 o godzinie 13:17
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