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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Auschwitz dance

A 89year old surviver of the Holocaust produced a video together with his daughter and grandchildren to the sound of "I will survive"

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=GUoanho82H4&feature=related

Controversial? Honest? Funny?

What do you think?

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=iPgKloQMeh8
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

To survive these days one must be controversial? (author)

or indeed...

I survived therefore I dance. (survivor)

I would let it go.

When I think of nazi (and stalinist) horrors I would rather listen to this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miLV0o4AhE4Jacek K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 06.09.10 o godzinie 13:18
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Adam Osypowicz

Adam Osypowicz Account Executive UK

Temat: Auschwitz dance

Hi,
It is not controversial to survive, but for me it is not ok to dance in a place like Auschwitz, and make a video with it... thats wrong mate... It should be a place of memory, respect... and remorse... but most of all memory of those who died, why they died, and that this should never happend again.
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

I imagine the old Jewish survivor said to young guys:

"I cannot stand this sadness, lets dance, I will chant some jidish song the way we did in the past in the bad times in ghetto. Cmon' lets dance now. I shall be happy after all this."

And the young guys living in another world, the reality of Facebook and Youtube, who have no idea, no understanding about what he suffered, recorded it, added soundtrack, put it on youtube.

Note that war memories and death are trivialised. For millions of years death was subject to TABOO traditions/regulations. Now there is no taboo, nothing sacred.Jacek K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 07.09.10 o godzinie 09:30
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Keith Byrne

Keith Byrne Director, Select
Training Solutions

Temat: Auschwitz dance

Not a million miles away:

"It was shortly after the British Red Cross arrived, though it may have no connection, that a very large quantity of lipstick arrived. This was not at all what we men wanted, we were screaming for hundreds and thousands of other things and I don't know who asked for lipstick. I wish so much that I could discover who did it, it was the action of genius, sheer unadulterated brilliance. I believe nothing did more for those internees than the lipstick. Women lay in bed with no sheets and no nightie but with scarlet red lips, you saw them wantering about with nothing but a blanket over their shoulders, but with scarlet red lips. I saw a woman dead on the post mortem table and clutched in her hand was a piece of lipstick. At last someone had done something to make them individuals again, they were someone, no longer merely the number tatooed on the arm. At last they could take an interest in their appearance. That lipstick started to give them back their humanity."

An extract from the diary of Lieutenant Colonel Mervin Willett Gonin DSO who was amongst the first British soldiers to liberate Bergen-Belsen in 1945. Source: Imperial War Museum.
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

I've read many many memories of survivors of the different camps. I see nothing wrong in this idea. It's not easy to find a way how to teach young generations about the Shoah. I'm glad that this man wants to tell his story to his descendants. Of course everything can be misunderstood by people who don't know anything about the history but we must do everything to keep the memory. Check the Auschwitz Memorial site on Facebook, it's not about trivialising or about the sacrum, in our new times and media there are new approaches.
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Paulina W.:
or about the sacrum, in our new times and media there are new approaches.

I still wonder if these new approaches do not backfire on us. Taboos were developed throughout history and usually have some scientific explanation.

Today we have a strong taboo related to even downloading or possessing pictures with naked children. This is because the sexual exploitation of children grew out of proportion.

We allow and are tolerant now of single sex marriages. Why then not incest marriages, first of of first generation cousins, then sister and brother lovers. Why prosecute them for intending to love each other, incl. sexually.
Because there is this taboo sense in us, developed through observation of many generations, that this is simply not right. Only recently we know about genetics.

But we abandon taboo related to death, evil, suffering. We do not understand yet where it will backfire on us. Maybe the generation watching dances on graves, watching battle scenes of Band of Brothers etc. will suffer from post-traumatic stress, or maybe they will become unable to feel empathy...
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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Auschwitz dance

Paulina W.:
Of course everything can be misunderstood by people who don't know anything about the history but we must do everything to keep the memory.

Why? Do you want to keep the memory of all the atrocities ever commited alive? Or just this one?
What's the gain/use? To show whom what? The memory of Auschwitz did not intervene during the Bosnia/Serbia/Albanian-conflict or any other? People in Asia or Africa don't know about it. Do they need to? What about atrocities from other continents?
Should we introduce rememberance years?
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Bernd Schreckenberg:
Paulina W.:
Of course everything can be misunderstood by people who don't know anything about the history but we must do everything to keep the memory.

Why? Do you want to keep the memory of all the atrocities ever commited alive? Or just this one?

Because, as Eclesiastes says:
"The heart of the wise is in the house of sorrow".
The house of mourning is the wise man's school.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki
Auschwitz and Treblinka
Dresden
My Lai
Kambodia's Killing Fields
Kongo (Tutsi vs. Hutu)
Armenians
I remember, probably many more.
They are symbols for remembrance of educated man.

Like the word eugenics. A politician in Poland that was not sensitive enough to understand the term and remember its history was humiliated a bit before he became an official candidate for presidency. He is now President of Poland and he probably will be a good one. But his lack of sensitivity to eugenics was exposed. Is eugenics bad? Only those that remember and learn about XX century's atrocities will be able to answer. And it was the bloodiest one, unlike any previous ones, the century of totalitarian ideologies.

Not only geography but euphemisms like
Eugenics, ethnic clensing, final solution, collateral damage. We shall remember and should be able to visualise what it means. And these words are taboo, there should be no joking about them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy3nmHH6Lho&feature=rel...Jacek K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 13.09.10 o godzinie 21:29
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Bernd Schreckenberg:
Why? Do you want to keep the memory of all the atrocities ever commited alive? Or just this one?
What's the gain/use? To show whom what? The memory of Auschwitz did not intervene during the Bosnia/Serbia/Albanian-conflict or any other? People in Asia or Africa don't know about it. Do they need to? What about atrocities from other continents?
Should we introduce rememberance years?

I'm not an expert in the history of the other continents. Of course the humanity knows a lot of atrocities. Yes, we should remember them in order to protect ourselves and the next generations. But the system of the Nazi camps was absolutely particular. Gas chambers are not "just" barbarity. I think I don't need to explain it here.
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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Auschwitz dance

Paulina W.:

Of course the humanity knows a lot of atrocities. Yes, we should remember them in order to protect ourselves and the next generations.

Still, why? Do you remember atrocities from ancient times? Did the rememberance protect us from any other atrocities? Even the story about Kain and Abel didn't stop mankind from killing their brothers.
Point being: it's read too much into 'remembering' and 'never forgetting'.
Auschwitz will be forgotten just as all the other death camps and gruesome mass-murders in any given country at any past time at some point.
But the system of the Nazi camps was absolutely particular.

Every new technology or a bundled use of older known methods becoming a new one is 'particular' for a short moment in history. There is no absolute to it.
Gas chambers are not "just" barbarity. I think I don't need to explain it here.

Please do. Were they any worse than Gulags? Does a person who survived the firestorm of Dresden accept that? How can one compare babarity or an atrocity? Did the people in Auschwitz suffer more?

Don't confuse the amount of people killed with the way people were killed with the place the people were killed with the people killing those people. Etc. pp.

PS: If one needs an atrocity to explain why killing is bad doesn't have sound logic. Or an emotional problem, IMHO.Bernd Schreckenberg edytował(a) ten post dnia 14.09.10 o godzinie 08:42
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Bernd Schreckenberg:
Paulina W.:

Still, why? Do you remember atrocities from ancient times? Did the rememberance protect us from any other atrocities? Even the story about Kain and Abel didn't stop mankind from killing their brothers.

Yes we do remember, Jingis Khan's atrocities, witch-hunting atrocities, mass murders of French Revolution, atrocities of American Civil War (Remembrance Day). Some of that remains in literature and is remembered by common man.
Point being: it's read too much into 'remembering' and 'never forgetting'.
Auschwitz will be forgotten just as all the other death camps and gruesome mass-murders in any given country at any past time at some point.

Auschwitz, Hiroshima and Dresden are part of literature. To forget one should imagine that one day we all will become illiterate.
Please do. Were they any worse than Gulags? Does a person who survived the firestorm of Dresden accept that? How can one compare babarity or an atrocity? Did the people in Auschwitz suffer more.

Will be remembered, In 500 hundred years someone will study american literature, will read Vonegut's Slaughterhouse Five and remember Dresden.
Don't confuse the amount of people killed with the way people were killed with the place the people were killed with the people killing those people. Etc. pp.
Numbers do not count, MyLai is part of history textbooks but it was only a small village.

PS: If one needs an atrocity to explain why killing is bad doesn't have sound logic. Or an emotional problem, IMHO.

One guy created a new branch of science because he wondered why people are capable of atrocities against other people like those in Auschwitz. The famous Eliot Aronson. And the science is social psychology.

Das Experiment... I like this German movie and recommend it to all, it is based on the experiment carried out by social psychologists in US. Understanding the attrocities is possible.
Deutsch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdTafti2wdY
English
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkazPqs46NE&feature=pla...!Jacek K. edytował(a) ten post dnia 14.09.10 o godzinie 11:47
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Bernd Schreckenberg:
Paulina W.:

Of course the humanity knows a lot of atrocities. Yes, we should remember them in order to protect ourselves and the next generations.

Still, why? Do you remember atrocities from ancient times? Did the rememberance protect us from any other atrocities? Even the story about Kain and Abel didn't stop mankind from killing their brothers.
Point being: it's read too much into 'remembering' and 'never forgetting'.
Auschwitz will be forgotten just as all the other death camps and gruesome mass-murders in any given country at any past time at some point.
But the system of the Nazi camps was absolutely particular.

Every new technology or a bundled use of older known methods becoming a new one is 'particular' for a short moment in history. There is no absolute to it.
Gas chambers are not "just" barbarity. I think I don't need to explain it here.

Please do. Were they any worse than Gulags? Does a person who survived the firestorm of Dresden accept that? How can one compare babarity or an atrocity? Did the people in Auschwitz suffer more?

Don't confuse the amount of people killed with the way people were killed with the place the people were killed with the people killing those people. Etc. pp.

PS: If one needs an atrocity to explain why killing is bad doesn't have sound logic. Or an emotional problem, IMHO.Bernd Schreckenberg edytował(a) ten post dnia 14.09.10 o godzinie 08:42


Bernd, please, do you really think it's all the same? Camps were not WAR nor any military operation. There was a different idea behind Gulags. Have you read any book written by Auschwitz survivors? For example Tadeusz Borowski "This Way for the Gas, Ladies and Gentlemen" or "We Were in Auschwitz". It doesn't need to be Polish, I recommend also Primo Levi or Venezia Shlomo (against all the odds he survived from Sonderkommando!).
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Bernd Schreckenberg:
A 89year old surviver of the Holocaust produced a video together with his daughter and grandchildren to the sound of "I will survive"

Controversial? Honest? Funny?

Daft and annoying. I can't stand the song in the first place and then someone had an idiotic idea to perform in the former death camp. I suggest they do the same dance in Gaza.Marcin B. edytował(a) ten post dnia 15.09.10 o godzinie 01:25
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

I very prefer this video. It very moving. Is bringing me closer to God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLKk00OYKhU&feature=rel...
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Paulina W.:

Bernd, please, do you really think it's all the same? Camps were not WAR nor any military operation. There was a different idea behind Gulags. Have you read any book written by Auschwitz survivors? For example Tadeusz Borowski "This Way for the Gas, Ladies and Gentlemen" or "We Were in Auschwitz". It doesn't need to be Polish, I recommend also Primo Levi or Venezia Shlomo (against all the odds he survived from Sonderkommando!).

Well...I disagree, camps were part of War, their creation resembled much a military operation.

On the one hand there were uniformed men, fit, shaved and fragrant with Eau de Cologne, indoctrinated and convinced they are right, willingly following the authority in military fashion, arrogating power with military means of a bullet, barbed wire or chemicals, and on the other, the enemy, camp inmates...
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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Auschwitz dance

Paulina W.:

Bernd, please, do you really think it's all the same?

To bring people into a certain place to kill them is not unique, it's simple logic. To use means available and maybe most modern methods too. It has been like this since the dawn of time.
Camps were not WAR nor any military operation.

As Jacek pointed out, they were. It was one aim of the war to get rid of Jews. And it was not the first time in history either that a state persued and killed the Jews. And there is not one country in continental Europe which did not help the Nazis finding and transporting and killing Jewish population. Including other Jews.
There was a different idea behind Gulags.

No.
Have you read any book written by Auschwitz survivors? For example Tadeusz Borowski "This Way for the Gas, Ladies and Gentlemen" or "We Were in Auschwitz". It doesn't need to be Polish, I recommend also Primo Levi or Venezia Shlomo (against all the odds he survived from Sonderkommando!).

There are tons of books. There are even holocaust survivors denying the holocaust or blaming the Jews for it.

Point being: It was an historical occurence of grave magnitude, which is unique in it's way but not outstanding or different than other mass murders in history. As a part of history it should be remembered but it should not be stipulated as the worst thing ever happened.
Without trying to be cynical: one should be careful with using a superlative. We don't know yet if something more gruesome will happen (whereas some call the Soviet-Gulag-system worse).
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Bernd Schreckenberg:

To bring people into a certain place to kill them is not unique, it's simple logic. To use means available and maybe most modern methods too. It has been like this since the dawn of time.
As Jacek pointed out, they were. It was one aim of the war to get rid of Jews. And it was not the first time in history either that a state persued and killed the Jews. And there is not one country in continental Europe which did not help the Nazis finding and transporting and killing Jewish population. Including other Jews.
There are tons of books. There are even holocaust survivors denying the holocaust or blaming the Jews for it.
Point being: It was an historical occurence of grave magnitude, which is unique in it's way but not outstanding or different than other mass murders in history. As a part of history it should be remembered but it should not be stipulated as the worst thing ever happened.
Without trying to be cynical: one should be careful with using a superlative. We don't know yet if something more gruesome will happen (whereas some call the Soviet-Gulag-system worse).

Bernd, it's clear that you feel uncomfortable with the camps subject. This is really not my point to make you feel worse and provoke you to these pseudo-rational explanations. I'm not going to write here all the "outstanding" ideas of the Nazis, this is not an auction. But the way you defend ... (and who exactly do you want to defend?) it's getting not only ridiculous but also very inappropriate. You don't need to repent, it's better to remain silent.Paulina W. edytował(a) ten post dnia 15.09.10 o godzinie 21:03
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Bernd Schreckenberg

Bernd Schreckenberg I am an experienced
teacher, with a
diverse background,
h...

Temat: Auschwitz dance

Paulina W.:

Bernd, it's clear that you feel uncomfortable with the camps subject. This is really not my point to make you feel worse and provoke you to these pseudo-rational explanations. I'm not going to write here all the "outstanding" ideas of the Nazis, this is not an auction. But the way you defend ... (and who exactly do you want to defend?) it's getting not only ridiculous but also very inappropriate. You don't need to repent, it's better to remain silent.Paulina W. edytował(a) ten post dnia 15.09.10 o godzinie 21:03

You know what? Instead of trying to evade discussion and provoking me, how about you put something substantial here? Or repent. Your choice.
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Temat: Auschwitz dance

Bernd Schreckenberg:

You know what? Instead of trying to evade discussion and provoking me, how about you put something substantial here? Or repent. Your choice.

I don't see much sense in this discussion. I can understand your willingness to justify but I can't understand that you see nothing wrong in this.
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