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Steve Jones

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Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

I found this a fascinating watch... I mean I've heard that this problem exists, but as I never really go to football matches, don't live in a shithole town and never really hang out with the lokal Karky/ Nazi. skinhead kids, I never really notice any of this.

From the Ross Kemp on Gangs series:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ross+kemp+...

Is this kind of stuff as widespread as the programme makes it appear?
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Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

I’d imagine this is something present in pretty much every country world wide. There is a great TV series here in the U.S. called “Gangland” and it covers American gangs… now that’s something to talk about. From MS13, Bloods, Crips, North and South Mexican mafias, la eMe and then you got the Nazis… who pretty much run shit in prisons and are [ I think MS13 aside], the most dangerous and influential gang organization here. Not even the Italians mess with the Aryan brotherhood.
Problem here is pretty obvious; there are no laws against racism or prejudicial activities. There are laws against hate crimes, but not against hate itself. So you have Aryan brotherhood compounds all over Midwest where people (sorry, from a lack of better words I have to call them “people”) meet regularly and plot. Skinheads here hold public open rallies and are protected by the police against protesters. It’s all thanks to the freedom of speech which guarantees these folks their right to.. whatever it is that they do. Then you have bikers, mainly Hells Angels and Pagans but not limited to.
Entire neighborhoods are pretty much taken hostage, huge parts of cities are controlled. Drugs, prostitution, grand theft auto etc etc….
Friend of mine used to live in Brooklyn, deep end of it, where during the Fourth of July celebration, kids came out with guns and celebrated with their own sort of fire works.
I’ll have to watch this special when I get home from work, somehow I don’t think it’s really that big of an issue.
How is the situation with gangs in the U.K? I remember watching “This is England” and although it was set in the early 80’s, somehow I doubt that it’s all gone now.
I think the more diversities and immigrants, the more of these hate groups are going to spring up. I’d love to blame it all on lack of proper education, but some of these people are highly educated folk. I can tell you from a personal experience, I’ve met a dude here, with a Phd. In Chemistry, all sorts of other degrees in biology and related fields… and he said – “Blacks and Spanish people are God’s mistakes”.
I’m not sure what it looks like in Poland or Europe in general, but over here majority of hate groups do it in the name of religion.
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Marek M.

Marek M. Life

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Thanks for this link Steve, I’ve not seen this film before. As it is for football hooligans problem I think it’s changing. Football hooligans are much younger nowadays, most of them are teenagers but they are still causing troubles . And the problem with racism isn’t a such a big issue now. I think this hole nazzi stuff was just an excuse or a way out for some of them.

[Edit]
It was a very similar documentary on Discovery "The real football factories - international" here is an episode from poland http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42plidAWbhMMarek Szpitun edytował(a) ten post dnia 09.10.08 o godzinie 16:00
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Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Marek Szpitun:
Thanks for this link Steve, I’ve not seen this film before. As it is for football hooligans problem I think it’s changing. Football hooligans are much younger nowadays, most of them are teenagers but they are still causing troubles . And the problem with racism isn’t a such a big issue now. I think this hole nazzi stuff was just an excuse or a way out for
some of them.

I recently met a young guy who left Poland few years back and now, after living in few other places resides in the US. He told me that Poland is probably the biggest xenophobic country he’s ever lived in, which is also one of the reasons for his departure.
How do you feel about that? Personally I disagreed with him… from my own experience I’ve had the “pleasure” of meeting some total racist fucks and some really opened minded people… the ratio of friendly and understanding people greatly outweighs those who chose to dwell in ignorance; I’d go as far as saying that I can’t recall the last time, if ever being a young lad in Poland and ever hearing a racial slur. Having said that, I am also well aware of many anti-Semitic jokes or jokes related to other minorities… but I’ve never even heard of anyone holding a rally and standing in the middle of town square preaching hate.
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Marek M.

Marek M. Life

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

From my point of view I think it's changing and it's changing for better. Maybe I'll say something weird but I take a risk, I saw more xenophobic behavior in London in two weeks than in Warsaw in two years.
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Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Marek Szpitun:
>I saw
more xenophobic behavior in London in two weeks than in Warsaw in two years.

Care to elaborate a bit?
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Marek M.

Marek M. Life

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Rafal W.:
Marek Szpitun:
>I saw
more xenophobic behavior in London in two weeks than in Warsaw in two years.

Care to elaborate a bit?

Ok maybe I’ll give some examples from this two weeks, so first one is my friend’s ex-neighbour, old guy quite nice and very funny but he doesn’t mind swearing at every person which is not pale. Another one, I was in a pub having a pint, waiting for my friend, while came once again an old guy ( even older then the first one), he was dressed whit English flag, he was talking about history, politics and not English people in UK (...). The worst think was that two quite young guys joined him.
Ok, one more story, very strange for me, maybe because I was directly involved. I was at the tube station where a group of black young people suggested that I had some issues about they color or something but I didn’t do anything inappropriate, I didn’t even say anything.
I guess this problem in UK is because the society, especially in London, is very mixed, sometimes the tension is quite high. But I don’t live in England so maybe someone else will write something more.
As it is for Poland (Warsaw) just as I wrote I think it’s getting better. But in my opinion we have a problem not with tolerance for the people with different skin colour but for the people who think a little bit different, they dress different, etc ….

[Edit]
Maybe Steve and Warren will write their opinion.Marek Szpitun edytował(a) ten post dnia 09.10.08 o godzinie 18:45
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Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Yea… that’s your usual product of multiracial or multicultural environment. There will always be those who will not necessarily agree with the fact that their beloved country is now flooded with people who look, act and talk differently. We see less and less of them, but those who remain are much stronger and louder.
People often feel insecure in their own beliefs when faced with something that they do not understand. At first it’s usually curiosity but that changes super fast when the numbers of strangers swell.

I’ve experienced some prejudice here in the states and have met people from so many different backgrounds; we are all prejudice to some degree. I for one have no patience for racism and things that we are now talking about.
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Marek M.

Marek M. Life

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

You're right Rafal, ... just one more example ... I forgot to mention about one thing (for me most humiliating for anyone). In some quite known clubs in London (but not only in London) there is a guy in the toilets who helps you with soap, water and paper towels. And guess what, his black.

Do you have such service in US?
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Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Do you remember the disaster during the final of the 1985 European Cup tournament between Liverpool and Juventus in The Heysel Stadium (Brussels) ?

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=cBB9iS9n6XI

This disaster occurred owing to football hooliganism in which a retaining wall of the Heysel Stadium in Brussels collapsed on May 29, 1985 before a football match between Liverpool F.C. from England and Juventus F.C. from Italy. 39 people were killed, mostly Italian Juventus fans, and hundreds more were injured.
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Marek M.

Marek M. Life

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Ya, it was really horrible and still Juve and Liv fans hate and blame each other for Heysal.
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Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Marek Szpitun:
Ya, it was really horrible and still Juve and Liv fans hate and blame each other for Heysal.
I remember it very well ... it was during the exam period
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Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Marek Szpitun:
You're right Rafal, ... just one more example ... I forgot to mention about one thing (for me most humiliating for anyone). In some quite known clubs in London (but not only in London) there is a guy in the toilets who helps you with soap, water and paper towels. And guess what, his black.

Do you have such service in US?

Yes, but it's not only minorities that commit this sort of employment. It’s like a step up from a babcia klozetowa.

I don’t necessarily brand it as racism, although it does look bad… what does get me however is when people place these on their lawns:

[obrazek]

[obrazek]
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Marek M.

Marek M. Life

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Rafal W.:
Marek Szpitun:
You're right Rafal, ... just one more example ... I forgot to mention about one thing (for me most humiliating for anyone). In some quite known clubs in London (but not only in London) there is a guy in the toilets who helps you with soap, water and paper towels. And guess what, his black.

Do you have such service in US?

Yes, but it's not only minorities that commit this sort of employment. It’s like a step up from a babcia klozetowa.

I don’t necessarily brand it as racism, although it does look bad…
even if it's not racism it really provokes racism behavior especially after few pints

what does get me however is when people place these on their lawns:
so this is like a step up from a 'krasnale' in Poland hie he
but seriously, this one looks horrible

Obrazek
Marek Szpitun edytował(a) ten post dnia 09.10.08 o godzinie 20:09
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Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Marek Szpitun:
Rafal W.:
Marek Szpitun:
You're right Rafal, ... just one more example ... I forgot to mention about one thing (for me most humiliating for anyone). In some quite known clubs in London (but not only in London) there is a guy in the toilets who helps you with soap, water and paper towels. And guess what, his black.

Do you have such service in US?

Yes, but it's not only minorities that commit this sort of employment. It’s like a step up from a babcia klozetowa.

I don’t necessarily brand it as racism, although it does look bad…
even if it's not racism it really provokes racism behavior especially after few pints

what does get me however is when people place these on their lawns:
so this is like a step up from a 'krasnale' in Poland hie he
but seriously, this one looks horrible

Obrazek
Marek Szpitun edytował(a) ten post dnia 09.10.08 o godzinie 20:09

Well… here is the problem. Just as it is or was the case with babcia klozetowa, these are jobs done by poorly educated aka “lower class citizens” and under that umbrella we can fit a pretty large number of people.
You will not see someone with a Harvard degree tending to your needs at your favorite club spot.
This is however a topic for an entirely new thread and it would have to involve things like the “white privilege” and other things that have little or no relevance to the actual subject of this thread.
Due to certain historical imagery we automatically associate some jobs or situations with slavery and racism where for most part, people like – bathroom attendants are no different from let’s say a waiter. Yet waiters are people whom we’d never associate with slaves.
Another example of such a job would be a doorman. For some, especially if he or she is not white it automatically brings up images of the old south; meanwhile, pretty much every apartment complex in Manhattan has a doorman.
We can also talk about social injustice here and go beyond the issue of race but jump right into something that is playing a more present role in our times, which is social status and uneven demographics caused by a number of issues closely related to the way things like education or the spread of wealth along with taxation are set up.
I’ve tried talking about these issues a while back here, but unfortunately not a lot of people are very interested in discussing such topics.
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Marek M.

Marek M. Life

Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

I agree 200%
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Steve Jones

Steve Jones Business English
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Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

just one little observation from today. I interviewed a Nigerian guy for a job. I asked him how he's been finding Poland so far. He told me that he's been here a year and has learned to be afraid of going out. Apparently, he's often verbally abused and occasionally physically attacked. He refuses to use public transport at night. He has no friends. The only person he can really talk to is his wife. His story was similar to that of another Nigerian who I employed a couple of years ago. Great guy. He also was afraid to use public transport after dark. Even after living here for 18 years.

I think that's pretty sad.
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Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Rafał, Marek, please don't change the subject - turning our attention to problems in London or the USA does not make the Polish racism/hooliganism issue disappear, and this is, as I believe, the topic Steve wants to discuss.

And it is a serious problem in Poland. Please, don't say that there's racism and neo-nazis everywhere in the world - Poland is the country, where you can see them wearing clothes with the SS or swastika emblems, they openly express their views, gather in public places, the business of nazi music and films underground production/distribution is running extremely well and there's no reaction to that even if it is illegal. Where in the world, apart from Poland, can you see swastikas as the "masterpieces" of graffiti "artists"? And you know what? We are so used to seeing them everywhere in Poland that we don't even notice them, but believe me, for a foreigner it is shocking, so is it a surprise when the first thought that appears is: "Poland must be a racist country"?. Simple as that and even if there are countries where the escalation of the problem is similar it's not as transparent.

Besides, there's definitely something wrong with Polish mentality - the country which suffered so much under the nazi occupation is the only country in the world where nazi ideology still flourishes and its emblems are publicly worn/painted/worshipped - isn't it a paradox? Or maybe just sheer stupidity of the nazi followers? It's obvious they are dumb (which doesn't mean they are not dangerous) but is it an excuse for the rest of the society to keep the mouth shut? Does the rest of the society neglect the problem because it's good when gangs fight gangs, thinking, this is the way of cutting down the number of them? And what if innocent people suffer?

As to the football hooliganism - it exists/used to exist in other countries too, but as the example of the UK and some other countries shows, it's not something that's impossible to curb. Of course, the clubs and politicians say that introduction of electronic systems at stadiums, identification and registration of fans are expensive, but considering the damages the hools cause, the involvement of police forces and so on, wouldn't it be cheaper in the long run? Why can't we learn by following good examples?Patrycja P. edytował(a) ten post dnia 10.10.08 o godzinie 11:08
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Ilter K.

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Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Dejavu
http://www.goldenline.pl/forum/anglosphere/310084
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Temat: Football Hooliganism Polish Style

Steve Jones:
I found this a fascinating watch... I mean I've heard that this problem exists, but as I never really go to football matches, don't live in a shithole town and never really hang out with the lokal Karky/ Nazi. skinhead kids, I never really notice any of this.

From the Ross Kemp on Gangs series:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ross+kemp+...

Is this kind of stuff as widespread as the programme makes it appear?

I don't think such groups are confined to 'shithole' towns, unless you define the trojmiasto, Kraków and Warsaw as 'shithole' towns.

Some of the worst hooligans in Poland are Arka Gdynia, Lechia Gdansk, Cracovia and so on.

Is this as bad as the programme makes out? Well, all such programmes are sensationalist. You never know if they are talking to genuine hardcases, or just bullshitters with a strange imagination about themselves. Generally speaking, it's the later.

I think I'm pretty well qualified to write about this as I've been to hundreds of matches both in the U.K. and Poland. I also got to know some of the local neo-Nazis. There used to be a pub in Szczecin that sold draught English beer. For some reason, it was also where the blood and honour skins hung out.

For sure, Polish hooligans are far worse than English ones. There's no comparison whatsoever.

Going to matches in Poland, I'd say >95% of the time there's no trouble at all. And if there is some kind of disturbance, it doesn't usually involve anyone who doesn't want to be involved.

When trouble does break out it's handled in an extremely amateurish and incompetent manner by the police and local security companies.

Polish football is in the state English football was in during the early eighties - only far worse.

I'll post some you tube videos.
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