Temat: 'It isn't our country any more.'

Attitudes of the white working class in Britain to immigration.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/728131...

Temat: 'It isn't our country any more.'

warren whitmore:
Attitudes of the white working class in Britain to immigration.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/728131...

It's the middle America paradox as well
http://www.minutemanproject.com/
England is a much smaller country so this is something that takes place much faster and on a greater scale, mainly due to the great stand of the British currency. People would rather go to UK to make money these days, it's closer and the Pound is much stronger than the US $. Travel is less expensive, I was told that one can fly from Poland to UK for $40! I can't get a dinner for two at the airport for that kind of money. I think (correct me if I am wrong) that UK will become the next US for immigrants, due to above mentioned reasons. Unless the UK gov't changes it's employment policies and it's immigration policies things will not change. How do you feel about this influx of immigrants? Do you think your countries gov't will make changes to it's policies?

Temat: 'It isn't our country any more.'

As far as Poland is concerned, the U.K. can't make changes to policy as Poland is part of the E.U..

However, the U.K. was only one of 3 E.U. countries that didn't delay accepted immigration from the new E.U. members when Poland joined.

What is amazing is that the British government only expected a few thousand to come. I'm sure over a million have arrived. I, or anyone who has spent any time in Poland, could have told the U.K. gov't that at the least hundreds of thousands would be arriving.

The U.K. (now) is quite a multicultural place. However, I believe this is the greatet wave of immigration the country has ever experienced.

Previous waves of immigration have been from the third world. (The Indian sub-continent and the West Indies). I would say that the West Indian population has (up to a point) integrated successfully, whereas the Pakistani/Bangladeshi community hasn't (at least in the North of England).

The Polish immigration is something like the Irish immigration that was experienced in the past, apart from the fact that the Irish spoke English, and were familiar with British cultural norms.

Temat: 'It isn't our country any more.'

[mainly due to the great stand of the British currency. People would rather go to UK to make money these days, it's closer and the Pound is much stronger than the US $.

I think that the pound is simply less weak than the USD rather than strong. If you ask a Pole how wonderful the pound is, given that their salary in sterling is now worth 20% less than one year ago, they will pull a face. However, they can work in the UK legally and as a result have better career prospects.

The British and US economies have been supported by consumption for years, itself supported by cheap debt, rather than productive industry. Their purchasing power is now beginning to reflect what they can offer the world in terms of production (i.e. not much).

Temat: 'It isn't our country any more.'

This is one of the hardest things for me to reconcile in my personal life. I'm completely torn in half by my compassion and unwillingness to begrudge a man his desire to make a better life for his family versus my sense of nationalism. The former leans on me more heavily.

Temat: 'It isn't our country any more.'

warren whitmore:
What is amazing is that the British government only expected a few thousand to come.

Yes this is pretty amazing, taking into consideration Polish emigration history coupled with the fact that Zloty is still the national currency.

The Polish immigration is something like the Irish immigration that was experienced in the past, apart from the fact that the Irish spoke English, and were familiar with British cultural norms.

Seems to me (I may be wrong)that the Polish wave is somewhat a touchy subject in Britain. How do you think the British gov't will react to this influx of Polish folk? Is it really that visible?

Temat: 'It isn't our country any more.'

I think it does depend on the immigrant. I can't understand why someone would want to live in a country and not integrate. Life is so much sadder if you define yourself as alone and separate, getting angry and frustrated that you have moved to a different culture which is hundreds of years old and is different to yours. As I write this, I am infact thinking of an American who lives in Poland and actually goes red in the face with anger when he complains about Poland's "stupid" 220-volt current!

Temat: 'It isn't our country any more.'

Joj Y.:
This is one of the hardest things for me to reconcile in my personal life. I'm completely torn in half by my compassion and unwillingness to begrudge a man his desire to make a better life for his family versus my sense of nationalism. The former leans on me more heavily.

It's a bit of a different story in US, it's much bigger, there is still plenty room. Plus the immigration policy here is much more strict. Yet each year US receives millions of newcommers searching for a better life. It's much easier to integrate here, not to say that it takes place all the time, in a different thread we talked about all those pockets of nationalities sticking together. I think the more west and south you go the more people actually mingle.

Temat: 'It isn't our country any more.'

Keith Byrne:
I think it does depend on the immigrant. I can't understand why someone would want to live in a country and not integrate.

I don't get it either.

Life is so much sadder if you define yourself as alone and separate, getting angry and frustrated that you have moved to a different As I write this, I am infact thinking of an American who lives in Poland and actually goes red in the face with anger when he complains about Poland's "stupid" 220-volt current!

Hahaha.. you know what... i still every now and again catch myself complaining about the US outlets! With the one wider and one smaller, now try to plug something in at night haha...

Temat: 'It isn't our country any more.'

Things like immigration, whether one likes it or not, can't be changed without heartache if not even bloodshed. Neither UK, US or for that matter Poland is going to chase people onto planes like Idi Amin did with the Ugandan Asians. Or kill them as happenned to the black people in pre-war Germany. There will always be a movement of people from countries with fewer opportunities to countries with more.

So how do we make the best of the situation we've got, and make immigration work out well for everybody?

Temat: 'It isn't our country any more.'

warren whitmore:
As far as Poland is concerned, the U.K. can't make changes to policy as Poland is part of the E.U..

However, the U.K. was only one of 3 E.U. countries that didn't delay accepted immigration from the new E.U. members when Poland joined.

What is amazing is that the British government only expected a few thousand to come. I'm sure over a million have arrived. I, or anyone who has spent any time in Poland, could have told the U.K. gov't that at the least hundreds of thousands would be arriving.

I don't think the govt. were serious when quoting the expected numbers (if I remember well, they were talking about 100-300 thousand at most). Before May 2004 the number of illegal Polish immigrants was already exceeding these figures and although it's not easily measurable, the Home Office must have been aware of this. I can imagine playing it down by the Labour Party was part of the current political strategy, as I'm sure the UK would never have allowed the Polish people to work if they didn't believe the market could accommodate us.

The U.K. (now) is quite a multicultural place. However, I believe this is the greatet wave of immigration the country has ever experienced.

Previous waves of immigration have been from the third world. (The Indian sub-continent and the West Indies). I would say that the West Indian population has (up to a point) integrated successfully, whereas the Pakistani/Bangladeshi community hasn't (at least in the North of England).

The Polish immigration is something like the Irish immigration that was experienced in the past, apart from the fact that the Irish spoke English, and were familiar with British cultural norms.

When it comes to integration of immigrants, I believe skin colour can be a factor that is hard to overcome, harsh as it may sound. It is very likely that grandchildren of an Indian / Moroccan / Korean person would still feel more Indian / Moroccan / Korean than English simply because they would look like representatives of their grandparents' countries. Whereas in case of Polish, a Polish-sounding surname might be all that's left three generations down. Having said that, I've got quite a few friends who say 'I'm English, but my parents are from Jamaica / Phillipines. etc.'

Temat: 'It isn't our country any more.'

Jon M.:
Things like immigration, whether one likes it or not, can't be changed without heartache if not even bloodshed. Neither UK, US or for that matter Poland is going to chase people onto planes like Idi Amin did with the Ugandan Asians. Or kill them as happenned to the black people in pre-war Germany. There will always be a movement of people from countries with fewer opportunities to countries with more.

So how do we make the best of the situation we've got, and make immigration work out well for everybody?

Jon, I remember from reading your responses to the 5 questions, that nationalism is your pet hate.

Does that mean that you are completely non-nationalistic, that, for example, you don't support the England soccer/rugby team?

Don't you think that up to a point nationalism is part of the human condition?

Let's say that English people were to become a minority in England, would that bother you at all?

Just curious.

Temat: 'It isn't our country any more.'

This bbc news report shows the scale of recent migration to the U.K..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7215624.stm

Temat: 'It isn't our country any more.'

Sylwia Łubkowska:

warren whitmore:
As far as Poland is concerned, the U.K. can't make changes to policy as Poland is part of the E.U..

However, the U.K. was only one of 3 E.U. countries that didn't delay accepted immigration from the new E.U. members when Poland joined.

What is amazing is that the British government only expected a few thousand to come. I'm sure over a million have arrived. I, or anyone who has spent any time in Poland, could have told the U.K. gov't that at the least hundreds of thousands would be arriving.

I don't think the govt. were serious when quoting the expected numbers (if I remember well, they were talking about 100-300 thousand at most). Before May 2004 the number of illegal Polish immigrants was already exceeding these figures and although it's not easily measurable, the Home Office must have been aware of this. I can imagine playing it down by the Labour Party was part of the current political strategy, as I'm sure the UK would never have allowed the Polish people to work if they didn't believe the market could accommodate us.

Never underestimate human stupidity, Sylwia.

When it comes to integration of immigrants, I believe skin colour can be a factor that is hard to overcome, harsh as it may sound. It is very likely that grandchildren of an Indian / Moroccan / Korean person would still feel more Indian / Moroccan / Korean than English simply because they would look like representatives of their grandparents' countries. Whereas in case of Polish, a Polish-sounding surname might be all that's left three generations down. Having said that, I've got quite a few friends who say 'I'm English, but my parents are from Jamaica / Phillipines. etc.'

You're right up to a point about skin colour.

However, West Indians are kind of accepted by the white working class in the U.K..

Much ethnic violence is between those of the same race, however. (Look at Kenya, and the former Yugoslavia for example).

In the U.K. the worst conflict has not been between black and white, but rather between the two tribes of Ireland.

And this tribalism, has transplanted itself to the U.K. mainland in Glasgow and Liverpool.

Funnily enough, the loathed 'other' tends to be those most similar to ourselves.

Temat: 'It isn't our country any more.'

warren whitmore:

Jon M.:
Things like immigration, whether one likes it or not, can't be changed without heartache if not even bloodshed. Neither UK, US or for that matter Poland is going to chase people onto planes like Idi Amin did with the Ugandan Asians. Or kill them as happenned to the black people in pre-war Germany. There will always be a movement of people from countries with fewer opportunities to countries with more.

So how do we make the best of the situation we've got, and make immigration work out well for everybody?

Jon, I remember from reading your responses to the 5 questions, that nationalism is your pet hate.

Does that mean that you are completely non-nationalistic, that, for example, you don't support the England soccer/rugby team?

Don't you think that up to a point nationalism is part of the human condition?

Let's say that English people were to become a minority in England, would that bother you at all?

Just curious.

I presume that Jon made the same distinction as I do between patriotism (the love of Ireland, and pride in being Irish)and nationalism (professing superiority over other nations, and wishing different nationalities to remain within their own geographical borders).

Temat: 'It isn't our country any more.'

However, West Indians are kind of accepted by the white working

If Pakistanis were more interested in football, and therefore represented in most professional league teams, as well as the national team, I wonder if they'd be more accepted?
It may sound flippant, but the fact that we see black members of our sports teams (particularly athletics) perhaps helps in making them seem to be 'one of us'.Steven H. edytował(a) ten post dnia 08.03.08 o godzinie 10:31

Temat: 'It isn't our country any more.'

Steven H.:

However, West Indians are kind of accepted by the white working

If Pakistanis were more interested in football, and therefore represented in most professional league teams, as well as the national team, I wonder if they'd be more accepted?

Pakistanis are more interested in making careers in the UK, they comprise 90% of all doctors in Liverpool. Maybe that's the reason they are not accepted by white working class? So maybe instead of being interested mainly in football and complaining that England is not their country anymore white working class should start doing something about their lives?

Temat: 'It isn't our country any more.'

Keith Byrne:

warren whitmore:

Jon M.:
Things like immigration, whether one likes it or not, can't be changed without heartache if not even bloodshed. Neither UK, US or for that matter Poland is going to chase people onto planes like Idi Amin did with the Ugandan Asians. Or kill them as happenned to the black people in pre-war Germany. There will always be a movement of people from countries with fewer opportunities to countries with more.

So how do we make the best of the situation we've got, and make immigration work out well for everybody?

Jon, I remember from reading your responses to the 5 questions, that nationalism is your pet hate.

Does that mean that you are completely non-nationalistic, that, for example, you don't support the England soccer/rugby team?

Don't you think that up to a point nationalism is part of the human condition?

Let's say that English people were to become a minority in England, would that bother you at all?

Just curious.

I presume that Jon made the same distinction as I do between patriotism (the love of Ireland, and pride in being Irish)and nationalism (professing superiority over other nations, and wishing different nationalities to remain within their own geographical borders).

plus trying to show all others in every possible way that they are all complete idiots. :(

Temat: 'It isn't our country any more.'

warren whitmore:

Jon M.:
Things like immigration, whether one likes it or not, can't be changed without heartache if not even bloodshed. Neither UK, US or for that matter Poland is going to chase people onto planes like Idi Amin did with the Ugandan Asians. Or kill them as happenned to the black people in pre-war Germany. There will always be a movement of people from countries with fewer opportunities to countries with more.

So how do we make the best of the situation we've got, and make immigration work out well for everybody?

Jon, I remember from reading your responses to the 5 questions, that nationalism is your pet hate.

Does that mean that you are completely non-nationalistic, that, for example, you don't support the England soccer/rugby team?

Don't you think that up to a point nationalism is part of the human condition?

Let's say that English people were to become a minority in England, would that bother you at all?

Just curious.

I suppose yes, patriotism (love and pride for ones culture) and nationalism, thinking that race and nationality are subjective factors in a person's human value, are different.

About sports, I support my local team (Leeds Utd), the England team (but I'm half Welsh and half Scottish, so I like to see them win too, just not against England) and the Polish team if none of the above are playing.

I think it will be a long time before the English will be a minority in England, and the concept of Englishness will probably have been redefined several times by then. Not to mention the idea of Britishness, which is largely about achievements and culture rather than just DNA. I would hate to see British culture (but which one, Northern industrial working class culture, Home Counties cucumber sandwich culture, Scottish Calvinism, Cornish fisherfolk - or some sorth of shared values that we all hold?) go down the pan - that would be a great loss to the world. I couldn't however care less what colour of skin my descendants might have. And can't control that anyway.

I suppose nationlism is part of the human condition, just as packs of chimpanzees slaughter neighbouring packs. Higher primates are vicious things and humans the most vicious of them.

The kind of nationalism I truly don't like is the kind that has gone on in former Yugoslavia, where people actually care what ethnic background or religion their neighbour is and believe that nationality somehow predicates the right to live in a particular place, and that if, for example, a Bosnian is in Croatia, their back garden is somehow less Croatian. There are elements of that occasionally in Poland too.

Also, I can't stomach the concept (I'm thinking especially about the IRA and the Basque ETA here, though it's sadly replicated the world over) that even one square inch of territory and national self-determination are worth killing women and children for. Both groups and their apologists would say their situations are complex, though that's not much consolation for their victims' families or others whose lives have been ruined by senseless sectarian fighting, whether their DNA/religion/language is the same as that of the opressor or the oppressed.

But I do rather like that Arab saying "My brother and I against our cousins, we and our cousins against our tribe, and our tribe against the world."Jon M. edytował(a) ten post dnia 08.03.08 o godzinie 15:15

Temat: 'It isn't our country any more.'

Patrycja P.:

Pakistanis are more interested in making careers in the UK, they comprise 90% of all doctors in Liverpool. Maybe that's the reason they are not accepted by white working class? So maybe instead of being interested mainly in football and complaining that England is not their country anymore white working class should start doing something about their lives?

I'm not sure if they are all of Pakistani origin or Indian. My feeling is that there are a larger proportion of middle-class Indian families than Pakistani in the UK.
However, in the case of Indian children I think that they are pushed towards doing their school work rather than messing around with other kids.