Temat: Is it rude to tell an Englishman how he should speak...

Well, is it?

Temat: Is it rude to tell an Englishman how he should speak...

warren whitmore:
Well, is it?

You have already offensively answered this question! :)

Besides, the discussions in a few threads about language have been about exchanging views on language correctness, effective communication, etc. Nobody here actually tells you Warren how you should use English.... you would not listen anyway, would you?

Temat: Is it rude to tell an Englishman how he should speak...

Yes, it is. However, if he says something one finds queer (assuming one has some grasp of the language), I think it wouldn't be impolite if he/she asked for some explanation, would it - or would it?Wendy Tweed edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.02.08 o godzinie 15:05

Temat: Is it rude to tell an Englishman how he should speak...

Grazyna Nnachi:

warren whitmore:
Well, is it?

You have already offensively answered this question! :)

Besides, the discussions in a few threads about language have been about exchanging views on language correctness, effective communication, etc. Nobody here actually tells you Warren how you should use English.... you would not listen anyway, would you?

Of course, I wouldn't.

Btw Grażyna I think you've made a very positive contribution to this group as a whole.

However, if you believe you know better about how English people speak English than the English themselves, you're going to annoy me and possibly others.

We think of it as being our language.

Or shouldn't I/we think in this way?

Temat: Is it rude to tell an Englishman how he should speak...

warren whitmore:

Grazyna Nnachi:

warren whitmore:
Well, is it?

You have already offensively answered this question! :)

Besides, the discussions in a few threads about language have been about exchanging views on language correctness, effective communication, etc. Nobody here actually tells you Warren how you should use English.... you would not listen anyway, would you?

Of course, I wouldn't.

Btw Grażyna I think you've made a very positive contribution to this group as a whole.

However, if you believe you know better about how English people speak English than the English themselves, you're going to annoy me and possibly others.

We think of it as being our language.

Or shouldn't I/we think in this way?

Why have you concluded I think my English is better than those who speak it as a native tongue? I never said anything like this.... I happen to be passionately interested in this language and the study of it.
I guess you imagine me travelling around Bedfordshire and telling people off for breaking the grammatical, or lexical rules, huh?
;-p
I am not. I just listen, observe and compare the way English is used by the natives here with what I have learnt about the language. I do not suppose it is a crime!

Temat: Is it rude to tell an Englishman how he should speak...

We think of it as being our language.

Or shouldn't I/we think in this way?

I hate to disappoint you and will probably get your goat again, but English is no longer the private possession of the British! It is a lingua franca and as such it belongs to all that use it and there are many that do! :)
All the speakers of English contribute to its development and change - not just the citizens of Britain.

Temat: Is it rude to tell an Englishman how he should speak...

Grazyna Nnachi:

Why have you concluded I think my English is better than those who speak it as a native tongue? I never said anything like this.... I happen to be passionately interested in this language and the study of it.
I guess you imagine me travelling around Bedfordshire and telling people off for breaking the grammatical, or lexical rules, huh?
;-p
I am not. I just listen, observe and compare the way English is used by the natives here with what I have learnt about the language. I do not suppose it is a crime!

Because, for example you told me that people in Luton say, 'I ain't know', when they don't.

Because you tell me that there is a dialect peculiar to Luton when there isn't.

Because you imagine there are prescriptive rules for intonation in English when there aren't.

And so on.

I would say you are talking bollocks.

Temat: Is it rude to tell an Englishman how he should speak...

Grazyna Nnachi:
I hate to disappoint you and will probably get your goat again, but English is no longer the private possession of the British! It is a lingua franca and as such it belongs to all that use it and there are many that do! :)
All the speakers of English contribute to its development and change - not just the citizens of Britain.

There's no answer to that.

You are free to believe whatever you choose to believe.

I would only suggest that if anyone wanted an academic paper proofread they would be more likely to ask me than you, which would indicate that your opinion is not widely shared.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.02.08 o godzinie 16:58

Temat: Is it rude to tell an Englishman how he should speak...

warren whitmore:

Grazyna Nnachi:
I hate to disappoint you and will probably get your goat again, but English is no longer the private possession of the British! It is a lingua franca and as such it belongs to all that use it and there are many that do! :)
All the speakers of English contribute to its development and change - not just the citizens of Britain.

There's no answer to that.

You are free to believe whatever you choose to believe.

But Warren, that's what we discussed when I was in Cambridge. Our British teachers showed us examples how British English has been changing because of foreigners.
One example: give us a call- taken from American English

Temat: Is it rude to tell an Englishman how he should speak...

Alicja Efejska:

But Warren, that's what we discussed when I was in Cambridge. Our British teachers showed us examples how British English has been changing because of foreigners.
One example: give us a call- taken from American English

???

English is as pure as factory effluent.

It changes all the time.

Most of its vocabulary comes from other languages rather than the original Anglo-Saxon.

I don't really know what your point is.

If I am talking about English being our language, what I mean is that native speakers of British English determine what the conventions of British English are.

There are, of course many Englishes. Americans decide what is the norm in American English. Australians decide what is the norm in Australian English, and so on.

I would imagine it is Poles who get to decide what is correct in Polish, or am I mistaken?

Temat: Is it rude to tell an Englishman how he should speak...

My point is that your language is changing also because of foreigners who use the language. They showed us many examples but I can't give them to you because I don't know these languages.

Temat: Is it rude to tell an Englishman how he should speak...

Alicja Efejska:

warren whitmore:

Grazyna Nnachi:

but English is no longer the private possession of the British! It is a lingua franca and as such it belongs to all

that use it

Grażyna, that's something new, at least to me. I use English but it has never occurred to me that I am constantly contributing to the language, not to mention that it doesn't belong to the British any longer and that I might be the owner of it. Are we talking about British English?

Temat: Is it rude to tell an Englishman how he should speak...

Wendy Tweed:

Grażyna, that's something new, at least to me. I use English but it has never occurred to me that I am constantly contributing to the language, not to mention that it doesn't belong to the British any longer and that I might be the owner of it. Are we talking about British English?

I would imagine that at some point 'Euro-English' will emerge, in which everyone who uses it gets an equal say.

Unless and until this happens, you're all stuck with my English, I'm afraid. (That is if you want the British rather than the American version).

Temat: Is it rude to tell an Englishman how he should speak...

Because you tell me that there is a dialect peculiar to Luton when there isn't.

I think you did not read what I wrote well! I said, I have friends here (born and bred British nativer speakers) who do not want their kids to speak Luton dialect; I wasn't interested in the existence or non-existence of Luton dialect but since they mentioned I did observe peculiarites of language use and pronunciation in this region. Here's a link where one can listen to samples of dialects in the UK - Luton is listed as one as well!!

http://web.ku.edu/idea/europe/england/england.htm

Because you imagine there are prescriptive rules for intonation in English when there aren't.

I do not have to imagine. There are rules. If I applied Polish intonation patterns in English, you would not understand what I am saying.
A long long time ago, when I first met an Aussi person I was talking with him about Australia and I mentioned Aborigines. Having not used the word before I pronounced it following my intuition (not trained in phonetics then) and I put accent on the first syllable, as we often do in Polish. They guy had no idea what I was on about. At some point he guessed from the context and corrected me to say Abo'rigines (with the accent on the second syllable)... If intonation was not important he would understand my way of saying this word.

I would say you are talking bollocks.

yeah, you did say it in many different ways - at least the non-native English speakers here will learn how to insult people in English. So much for the already discussed English politeness;-p

Temat: Is it rude to tell an Englishman how he should speak...

That's it, Warren!
"Euro-English" or "Brussels-English" is one thing, American English is another thing and British English is one more thing.
No denying that British English is only yours. Don't you dare to usurp any rights to my Polish - can you hear me?
Well, you may correct my Polish from time to time, this I will certainly allow..Wendy Tweed edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.02.08 o godzinie 17:46

Temat: Is it rude to tell an Englishman how he should speak...

warren whitmore:

Grazyna Nnachi:
I hate to disappoint you and will probably get your goat again, but English is no longer the private possession of the British! It is a lingua franca and as such it belongs to all that use it and there are many that do! :)
All the speakers of English contribute to its development and change - not just the citizens of Britain.

There's no answer to that.

You are free to believe whatever you choose to believe.

thank you for the permission:)

It would be good if you respected what I and other people here believe

I would only suggest that if anyone wanted an academic paper proofread they would be more likely to ask me than you

that's just another arrogant statement or perhaps an advert of your proofreading services(?)
I am only wondering what you base your judgement on - just being a native speaker of English? If so, then you'd be glad if children here were taught English by, eg. plumbers or car mechanics (no offence to those professions)?

Temat: Is it rude to tell an Englishman how he should speak...

Getting to the question itself (before we introduce the cat) it IS rude to tell anyone how one should speak a language. And any language.

Throwing away the extremes, telling another person directly how to communicate his own thoughts is not acceptable.

(Of course we are not talking about close friends conversation, teacher-student, etc.)

Temat: Is it rude to tell an Englishman how he should speak...

Grazyna Nnachi:

I would only suggest that if anyone wanted an academic paper proofread they would be more likely to ask me than you

that's just another arrogant statement or perhaps an advert of your proofreading services(?)

I am only wondering what you base your judgement on - just being a native speaker of English? If so, then you'd be glad if children here were taught English by, eg. plumbers or car mechanics (no offence to those professions)?

It's no advert.

Just proof of the fact that as regards English, some, unfortunately, are more equal than others.

It is the English of the native speaker that would be regarded as correct.

Just as if and when it is necessary to proof read something in Polish, a Pole would generally be asked to do the job.

You are fighting a ridiculous battle against the obvious, Grażyna.

Temat: Is it rude to tell an Englishman how he should speak...

Grazyna Nnachi:

Because you tell me that there is a dialect peculiar to Luton when there isn't.

I think you did not read what I wrote well! I said, I have friends here (born and bred British nativer speakers) who do not want their kids to speak Luton dialect; I wasn't interested in the existence or non-existence of Luton dialect but since they mentioned I did observe peculiarites of language use and pronunciation in this region. Here's a link where one can listen to samples of dialects in the UK - Luton is listed as one as well!!

http://web.ku.edu/idea/europe/england/england.htm

I repeat.

I have lived in Luton myself.

I have never heard of such a thing as a 'Luton dialect'.

There is no such thing as 'a Luton dialect'.

Because you imagine there are prescriptive rules for intonation in English when there aren't.

I do not have to imagine. There are rules. If I applied Polish intonation patterns in English, you would not understand what I am saying.
A long long time ago, when I first met an Aussi person I was talking with him about Australia and I mentioned Aborigines. Having not used the word before I pronounced it following my intuition (not trained in phonetics then) and I put accent on the first syllable, as we often do in Polish. They guy had no idea what I was on about. At some point he guessed from the context and corrected me to say Abo'rigines (with the accent on the second syllable)... If intonation was not important he would understand my way of saying this word.

You were attempting to apply these 'rules' to the speech of native speakers.

What you have written above is a complete irrelevance.

I would say you are talking bollocks.

yeah, you did say it in many different ways - at least the non-native English speakers here will learn how to insult people in English. So much for the already discussed English politeness;-p

I'd say you are coming across as both arrogant and foolish.

If I was to say 'In Szczecin people speak Polish like, blah, blah, blah, the Szczecin dialect of Polish blah blah, blah, rules of intonation as used in Szczecin blah, blah, blah' and a Polish person came along and said, 'I come from Szczecin, I think you've got it wrong', I imagine I'd have the good sense to shut up.

Temat: Is it rude to tell an Englishman how he should speak...

Just to say, Grażyna, I'm quite sure you're a nice person.

You also write English exceptionally well, which shows you must be intelligent.

I just think you are very, very, very, very wrong about certain points.

I also believe that when I write about the English language, generally I know what I'm talking about.

There is no great virtue in insisting you are correct, no matter what, Grażyna.warren whitmore edytował(a) ten post dnia 16.02.08 o godzinie 18:49